Tavern table finish and perhaps filler?

C

chairmakerjim

Member
Hi all, I'm new to the forum. I have a couple tavern tables to build and the tops will feature tiger maple. I am opting to surface the boards with hand planes and scrapers. The planes I'm using are tuned for difficult grain and I'm blessed with minimum tearout so far.

Here is my question, given I'm employing water based dyes to pop the grain, what should I use for a durable finish? Second, should I have some voids in the grain, would it best to resort to a filler of some sort? I noted on some other posts that shellac was advocated to fill in voids/pores.

Would appreciate some input here.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Hi Jim
Are you trying to make the tables look old or new?  English pub tables have a lot of character, worn edges,tear-out, dents, blemishes ,etc. [Forgive me for using the English word]. Not to mention color variations from edges to center, and bottom of legs from mops, things like that. Pub tables where built quickly to serve a purpose. I think if that pub tables built with fine furniture in mind they tend to look strange,[fake].
I also think alcohol based dye would be a better choice, most tree resins don't react well to water.You get better bit with alcohol.    Yes ,water based will work, and it's better when working with kids, and eco friendly, and stuff like that . But, I do this for a living', and waiting for water to dry is a bit more than I can take.
  By using alcohol based dye,and alcohol based finish,drying time is less of a factor and color [dye] can be used through-out the entire finishing process.  Much better control.  Also works well for pine and cherry blotches that are trouble-sum.
  As for finish, if this is going in a commercial setting,I would use shellac as a base, and to control color, then top coat with bar-top finish.Make sure the base coat is scuffed up before top-coat.If the table is to go in my house, I would finish with shellac, easier to repair.    Just a little to think about.          Randy
 
Hi Randy,

Yep I'm going to distress the tavern table somewhat.  I'll take some of the areas where wear would be expected and make that part of the reproduction.  Since I'll be building a couple sets of Windsor chairs, they'll be distressed or worn as well.  Honestly,  I have some room to grow when it comes to incorporating sufficient wear to enhance the period pieces.  I have a fear of overdoing it.  So I lean on the side of letting the piece wear from use after I've already added some wear points that way it doesn't look strange.

I realize now that I didn't give you enough information.  The tables, for instance, are going in people's homes.  One of them has small children.  But nevertheless I appreciate your comments in a bunch of ways.  I wasn't sure about shellac for a table top, but the wear from use and the capacity to repair is something for me to check out.  I haven't done much with shellac, but I am planning to use it on period pieces in the future.

Likewise, I have used water based dyes but haven't tried alcohol based dyes, so your comments were helpful there as well.  I do like the idea of having more control in the finishing process by sticking with alcohol bases finishing materials.

I've noted too that the tops of these tables were sometimes assembled without glue, but I want to keep food stuff out of the gaps.  So I'm gluing up the top for practical aspects. 

What about filling in the voids from some occasional tearout or irregularly grain?

Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim - You don't say whether you're looking for an historically accurate finish, or one that is modern and provides high alcohol/heat/wear resistance.  The two are not absolutely mutually exclusive, but they're close.

In particular, an antique tavern table with any finish (at least the original finish) on the top isn't really believable.  Everyone of them that I've seen and had the opportunity to examine up close had little, if any, of the original finish anywhere on the table.  One generally has to look carefully with a flashlight into joinery crevices to make an educated guess as to whether it was originally painted, stained, or stained/clear finished.

So in my opinion, a repro tavern table with a gloss finish and also "antiquing" looks as "fake" as it gets.  Even a matte finish, if totally intact, looks suspect.

But - if you're just trying to reproduce the form without the wear, and it's going to a house with young ones, I would use an alkyd varnish.  In a house without small children, I would use shellac for its repairability.  The difference is heat resistance - most evaporative film finishes do not stand up to really hot coffee cups in my experience.  Alkyd varnish does that pretty well, and is much more scratch resistant than polyurethane.

If you're going for historical accuracy as the table likely would've appeared when new, then you will likely want to use a plant resin based varnish.  The only one that I am aware of that is commercially available is Tried and True, but I've had other tell me that some lots of the material set up very slowly and doesn't get as hard as it should.
 
Jim - one other thought on the filler.  On maple, you really shouldn't have any pores or voids to fill.  If you're talking about surface imperfections like tear-out, then I would (gasp!) sand those out.  It's highly unlikely that any original tavern table would've had the top sanded, as sandpaper in the 18th century was expensive, the grit wasn't hard like it is today (in many cases, it was actually sand or ground glass - even garnet stands up better than that, and aluminum oxide is in a whole other class), and -most importantly- the 18th century expectation for a tavern table would not have been the same as a very expensive mahogany tea table.

But - you indicate that the table is going to someone else, and unless these folks are antique collectors, their expectation for furniture is very likely to be modern, which generally demands a very high degree of surface refinement for just about every surface on any piece of furniture, utilitarian or not.

And filling a decent sized patch of grain tear-out is going to either take you 50 forevers to fill with a clear evaporative finish like shellac, or it's going to look really ugly if you use a pore filler like pore-pac.  Pore-pac and similar products are opaque, so filling an imperfection on the surface just makes that imperfection look really obvious, in my opinion.
 
Hi All
  dkeller made some good points, and the customer has the finial word here, and the pay check.I'm not sure what look you are going for here but this is what I do.
  First, I use oak, but maple is ok.More of an English tradition.After built, I lightly sandblast the edges to simulate ware.Lightly sand any edges to remove splinters or sharp edges. Fill any tear-outs or other blemishes I don't like, then stain.For fillers I use two different types.For small holes and scratches I use [  FIX WOOD PATCH   1-800 624-7767  OSI Sealants Inc  ],this stuff is made by the Co. that makes PL 200 adhesive. The Wood Patch is acetone  based  and will dry in minutes and is made of wood shavings. It does take stain but usually a lighter shade. depending how you sand it , it will change the tone.  And, it doesn't shrink much.Not to be used on deep holes unless it's layered to allow to dry.It is available in a few colors.Different effects can be made by not mixing and using the vehicle to glaze the surface.You will understand when you open the can.
 The other is [Quik Wood  --Polymeric Systems Inc     610-286-2500].  This stuff is more on the epoxy side but will fill large gaps, can be formed into carvings or missing edges.It also takes stain on the lighter side depending on sanding.
I don't use Pore-pac often but it is on the shelf.
   All fillers require extra work to blend but 30+yrs of testing has lead me here. This is where French Patching comes in,ether by finger tip or brush these repairs can easily be covered.
    Next I tone or glaze the edges.
    As for the finish, with kids in the house,Shellac as a base coat, then French Patch blemishes out [fillers]. Then top coat with Lacquer,  Not the Pre. Cat. Lacquer. The reason for this,  lacquer is easy to repair. Water rings can be removed with an aerosol. Remember, I repair finishes,so I try not to use things that are hard to fix.
   So at this point, you have a table that looks and feels old but that glossy finish looks odd.  Next I use a small wire looped pad to burnish the surface, then fine brass wool, a little pumice, Murphy's oil soap, and water to finish the look.  Nothing to it, Right?
     Keep in mind,finding chemicals that work,or that you can work with,is a life long task.  Roughly 75% of the chemicals out there are junk. And the good companys are disappearing far too often. Remember  Star Chem. Co.,Bix Co., and when you could get Lacquer   based stain just about anywhere?
     Do good Work        Randy
 
Thanks David and Randy,

We are definitely on the same page in terms of wanting to reproduce a table that has visible wear and which includes various signatures of human activities.  I really appreciate some of the suggestions and the options you both me gave on finishes and filler when needed.  Also, the contact information will help me bunches.  I can't see making this table as a reproduction and then finishing it with a high gloss or another finish that gives it a fake look. 

You guys are great and your comments are right on in terms of balancing the needs of the customer with my own desires to strive for a historically appropriate look.  I'd like to look at one of these tavern tables again and this time photograph the wear and features resulting from years of use.  I have seen a few in Upstate New York, but don't know where the closest example might be around here. 

I hope to limit the filling thing to spots of unavoidable tearout.
 
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