Scrape, Sand or Both?

macchips4

Well-known member
    While working on a curly cherry work table and as gathering up some 150 and 220 sand paper, i was wondering "how furniture makers of the past prepared their furniture for finishing?" After planing, fitting and assembling their work was scraping the last step or sanding? Was sandpaper used then as it is used today (plentiful)? I'm sure it was not cheap and would have been used sparingly. Did the cabinetmaker start to stain, finish the wood after scraping, without any sanding and and sand only during the finish and polishing phase?
    I'm tempted to, after scraping all surfaces, only lightly break the edges with 220, then begin the finish (stain, raise grain, scuff, then shellac)
Any thoughts?
Joe
 
If you can believe answers.com, 
"Coated abrasives date as far back as the thirteenth century, when the Chinese used crushed shells and seeds glued with natural gum to parchment. By 1769 coated abrasive paper was being sold on the streets of Paris. An 1808 article describes a process for making coated abrasives, and in 1835 a United States patent was issued for a machine that produced coated abrasives."

Senior moments occur more often these days for some reason but I seem to recall we discussed this way back. I even might have mentioned hearing of an ad for glass paper in Old Philly around the 1760's or thereabouts. My guess it was too expensive for most furniture makers.  There are some finely smoothed ball and claw feet and other surfaces that I know and I cant reproduce without a touch of glass paper. You should run it on up to 280 grit if you choose to sand. Just dont tell anybody you use sandpaper- It makes some people "grit" their teeth. You might also prep the surface with the Lie-Nielsen low angle jack with the toothed blade. It does amazing things on curly wood. Then scrape or whatever you prefer.

John

 
Joe- I've seen a lot of scraping evidence on old pieces that haven't been refinished. Look behind the knees of cabriole legs and in other places like the shaped forms on shield back chairs, for instance. As John said, sandpaper or glasspaper was available in the 18th century and I've seen surfaces from that period that certainly were "sanded" in one way or another.
After the finishing conference at Winterthur a few years ago I'm more convinced than ever that there are VERY few truly original finishes. Those early finishes were thin and fugitive and so the pieces that appear to have no finish are probably the "original" ones. I suspect that the order of operations would have been to plane and scrape and burnish or sand, pretty much like we do today.
Areally good planed surface can hardly be improved upon and will not raise much if at all when you wet it . Like john said, toothing planes work for really nasty stuff, and there's lots of evidence for their use to level a surface in the 18th century. Scraping would follow to clean up thee toothing marks.
I start with 400 paper, wet, and sand again with 400, except on carving, where I just wipe the high points with 400 once to remove any sharp high points. Don't sand carving, in my opinion it just makes a lot of needless work and doesn't improve it.-Al
 
Al,

Several museum curators have told me that they find that 18th century furniture makers did not fill the pores of mahogany furniture. What is your observation on this?

Dennis Bork
 
Dennis- I'm not sure on this. I reproduced a piece of 1805 furniture for the Portsmouth Furniture show and they did analysis on the finish of the original and found brick dust and beeswax....I'm assuming this would fill the pores, but it certainly doesn't last.
I think by the time we see these pieces there has been so much done to the finishes and so much accumulated dust that it's hard to tell what was done in the first place.
I've heard stories of glue and also plaster being used for filling but can't say for sure. I have seen white stuff in pores but can't say what it was.
I personally like a mahogany finish that is not completely filled, so I generally let the finis do the filling and stop before it looks like glass, which I think looks awful on a repro piece, except maybe some Federal stuff that wants a more French-polished look.
So, to "answer" your question: I have no idea....Al
 
Not offering an opinion on the sand/scrape, but I do think the white stuff in the pores is there on the denser examples of cuban mahogany wood itself, I generally(a large generalization) think when the pore is bigger and blacker, the wood is less dense. Of course this is only for mahogany, if there's white stuff in walnut pores, I don't know what that is. I tend to think most better looking pieces of old mahogany had the white stuff in the pores.
 
I have no personal experience.
But several years ago I attended a lecture by Mack Headly who maintained that in Colonial Wmsbg, cabinet makers would use locally made brick dust to fill pores in mahagony.

Howard Steier
 
One comment about "original" surfaces - there's substantial evidence from period paintings that much high-style, dark-wood furniture had what amounts to a glass-smooth, "musical instrument like" surface.  One particular painting that comes to mind is from Philadelphia around the time of the revolution, and it shows a family patriarch and his wife leaning over a tea table.  The painter depicts that surface as a mirror - and I do mean mirror.  There are other such paintings going back to the 17th century - Adam Cherubini posted an image of one in his blog.

My guess is that the aversion to a french-polish type finish (i.e., flat, smooth and reflective) is more based on "what we're used to" as far as antique furniture is concerned more than what was actually the reality back in the day.
 
Yeah, I am just used to looking at beat up stuff. Your examples bring Copley's Revere portrait to mind, where I think the table is pretty shiny. It comes down to how "authentic" we feel like being-Al
 
Just because the tea table in the painting had a shinny surface does not necessary mean that all furniture was made/finished that way.  For example, it is a known fact that many people had their portrait painted with a more wealthy background setting even though they were not that wealthy.  Art historians will tell you that not all paintings will show you the true life or the way life really was.  I learned this from seminars at the art museums.

Dennis Bork
 
Hi Joe et al,

I think the most direct answer to your question may be found in Peter Nicholson's _Practical Carpentry, Joinery, and Cabinet-Making_, published in 1826. On page 25 of the section entitled "Practical Cabinet-Making," he has several paragraphs under the heading of "Cleaning off Wood-Work, &c." In part, he writes:

    "The finishing the surface of wood-work is sometimes called polishing; but, to avoid using the same word in two senses, we shall apply the ordinary term of cleaning off. The mode of commencing this operation depends on whether it be a veneered or a solid surface that is to be cleaned off. In solid wood the surface is rendered as even as possible; first, by a finely-set smoothing plane, and then by a steel scraper, to remove the marks of the plane. The surface is afterwards rubbed with glass-paper, finishing with the finest kind, so as to render the surface as smooth as possible."

For woods prone to raised grain during finishing, he describes dampening the surface and re-smoothing with the glass-paper or pumice stone. I learned this technique under the name of "flashing," and have also heard it called "whiskering." For veneered surfaces, Nicholson describes using coarser and finer toothing planes, followed up with a scraper and glass-paper. In either event, Nicholson treats this cleaning off process as a precursor to "common polishing" (oil polishing), wax polishing, french polishing and varnishing.

[As to filling the pores, Nicholson describes adding finely sieved brick dust, or, preferably, tripoli to the linseed oil for new work, if doing oil polishing.]

Nicholson trained/worked as a cabinet-maker during the 1770's, so it isn't too much of a stretch to think that he is passing on the practice of "cleaning off" as he experienced it during that time. Though, of course, when it comes to "polishing," french polishing became popular a little later. However, I'm not aware of any direct textual evidence from that period with which we can definitively confirm this. Which leaves us with indirect and fragmentary evidence from which we can assess whether it is possible and/or likely.

As to the use of a steel scraper (cabinet scraper), I have yet to find any mention from the 18th century. Though, personally, I strongly suspect it was commonly in use to the point that it was taken for granted. Possibly cabinet scrapers were not commercially available, though there are plenty of mentions of scrapers for use on the hulls of wooden ships. Tangentially, I've run across a passing mention, dated 1758, in the context of smoothing the ground for japanning, of the use of fish-skin ...  or a "glass shave."

As to the use and availability of abrasives, the other early mentions also have to do with fish-skin. In a 1745 book on farriery, we find this brief excerpt:  “... may well be compared to the Fish-Skin used by Joiners in smoothing up their Work ... .” Then, in a 1766 book on angling, appears this text:  “ ... The Skin of [Monk] Fish is very rough, and covered all over with filthy Slime. It is very much used to polish Wood and Ivory, and goes by the general Name of Fish Skin.” Finally, as a change of pace, by 1774, in a work on amateur scientific experiments, there is mention of using emery paper to smooth a piece of box[wood] being used in a scientific instrument.

As to commercially available abrasives, I am interested in John’s mention of a possible 1760’s Philadelphia listing of sand or glass paper. Tom Clark, the man I apprenticed with, thought he remembered a similar citation, but we’ve never been able to track it down. I’d be very interested if anyone has specific information on this.

I suspect several people are already aware of the listings from Christopher Gabriel’s inventories toward the end of the 18th century:

1791
13 quire glass paper
2 Bundles Dutch Rush
1 [lot?] Fish Skin

1800
11 Ream & 6 Quire Paper Emery
1 Ream Sand Do.

A slightly earlier mention is a newspaper advertisement dated February 17, 1786. The listings are for “Ironmongery and Hardware Goods,” from Forrest and Brown, High Street, Edinburgh, “At the Gilded Cock.” Along with listings for Joiners and Carpenters Tools,  these abrasives are found:

“Fish skin, Fin Tails & Rushes
Emery Paper, & Sand Ditto.
Coarse and fine Glass Paper.”

Though Joe didn’t ask about finishes, it seems this thread has veered off this issue to some extent. This strikes me as an important question due to the fact that it seems there is a widespread assumption that cabinet/furniture finishes, prior to the introduction of french polishing, were typically indifferent and lackluster. Based on microscopic studies of small samples, the conservators and curators at Winterthur are finding that the third quarter 18th century pieces they’ve studied largely refute this assumption. Specifically, they have been finding that the residue of resins still extant in the surfaces of these pieces are consistent with the varnish finishes known to be in use at the time.

When these varnishes are discussed to any extent in the older literature, the quality of shine or gloss almost invariably comes up. For example, Richard Neve, in 1736, says:  “Varnish, or Vernish, of Vernix, Lat. a viscid Compound of Gums and other Ingredients for setting a Gloss upon Cabinets, Pictures, and other Works. ...” A second example comes from a widely advertised prize, or premium, being offered by the [London] Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures, and Commerce, in a period from about 1758 to 1762. This calls for the production of a varnish, better than Martin’s (copal) varnish from Paris, on the basis of hardness, transparency, “being capable of the finest polish,” and resistance to cracking.

This emphasis is borne out by paintings from the period, as has already been mentioned. Here are links to four period paintings which show reflections indicating glossy surfaces to one degree or another (Larry posted a link to one of these on another forum some time back). The first of these is pretty subtle, but useful to look at. Some of them can be enlarged by clicking on them:

http://tinyurl.com/ykv662j

http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/ObjectDetails.aspx?oid=41241

http://tinyurl.com/y99orgv

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=yl07522443wk2u60&size=largest

Of course, these are high-style pieces, as David already mentioned. This is to be expected because of the social status of likely subjects for portraits from that period. But I think these images, and the information about the varnish finishes, are important in refuting the seemingly common assumption that cabinet-makers and their clients were indifferent in their approach to surface preparation and finish quality before the introduction of french polish.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
"[As to filling the pores, Nicholson describes adding finely sieved brick dust, or, preferably, tripoli to the linseed oil for new work, if doing oil polishing.]"

Has anyone used this method, I'm intrigued. Seem simple enough or am I being naive?

Thanks, Tony
 
I've tried several of these techniques. The trick with brick dust is that you need old bricks.  I have a small supply of 18th c brick fragments from Old City Philadelphia.  Presumably, these would be the exact sort of bricks used by Philadelphia cabinetmakers.  They have a hard outer shell, and a soft, clay rich interior (I think all 18th c bricks are like this, but bricks vary in color from place to place).  In use they feel a great deal like conte crayon, which you can find in any art supply store and seems to work just as well.  Ditto, the natural earth pigments can be used accordingly.

In mahogany, any amount of brick dust really does lighten and redden the wood.  I've never successfully filled pores with brick dust to give the look of old wood.  If you rub too hard with linseed oil, you'll drag it out.  A spit coat of shellac followed by oil might help retain the dust.  (I tried that with mixed results).  You can also mix up dust with linseed oil and paint with it.

I don't think brick dust (or horsetail rush) works as an effective abrasive for wood.  At least- a scraper is so much more effective you really have to wonder why anyone would use these materials for this purpose.  They could have used such materials effectively for rubbing out finishes.  As for glass paper, think about what grit you use after planing.  Would 180 grit improve a planed or scraped surface?  I really wonder how fine and how consistent glass paper would have to have been to be effective.  320? 400?

My take is I think they had the ability to produce fine film finishes.  I think Don has said in the past that musical instrument makers were certainly capable of producing fine finishes.  The question is what was applied to the furniture many of us are copying? The Philadelphia Chippendale pieces don't seem to have flawless surfaces.  And the conservators at the Philadelphia musuem of Art seem to think finishes on these pieces were spartan.  

I'm left with 2 conclusions:
1) Finishes varied piece to piece and greatly from 1770-1790.  I think it's pretty clear we need to be careful about applying 19th c sources to 18th c furniture.  Museums conservators (or guys that see alot of old furniture like Al Breed) seem to be better sources for details of period finishes. 

2) Our values (and our customers') are greatly influenced by antique furniture which typically has very different surface and finish qualities etc etc.  So in my mind, there's a question as to what finish makes the most sense for us.  What I think is helpful is to stay in step with the museums.  They largely influence us and our customers.  At the Philadelphia Museum of Art, right wrong or indifferent, finishes on Philadelphia Chippendale furniture are getting duller.   They also seem to be seeking more naturalistic colors and variation of colors (as opposed to that very purple mahogany stain color).

Adam
 
I have tried filling the pores by polishing with pumice.  However, if you get to much pumice on the surface you will end up with white specs in the pores showing up after the mineral oil evaporates.  Al - this might be the white stuff you see in the pores.

I have had much better success French polishing the surface without any abrasive.  You may think that is not possible but it is.  I learned it from two "old timers".  Try it!

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 
Adam,

A transcript of a WoodCentral chat of February 22, 2005 quotes you:

"But the whole truth is that we have no clue what they used it for or where. [David] DeMuzio [Senior Conservator of Furniture and Woodwork, Philadelphia Museum of Art] says the furniture was refinished 5 years after it was made."

The "it" referred to is the use of sandpaper, or any other abrasive I guess, for surface preparation of 18th century pieces. The implication being, I presume, that the early refinishing was so thorough and invasive that there is no way to tell anything about the original appearance, materials or surface preparation of these pieces. If so, what would be their basis for this claim?:

"And the conservators at the Philadelphia musuem of Art seem to think finishes on these pieces were spartan."

Seems to me that it's difficult to have this both ways.

Here are links to a couple of articles which clearly seem to indicate that the folks at Winterthur are drawing very different conclusions regarding period finishes:

http://www.chipstone.org/NewSiteFiles/AFintroframeset.html

Click on the 1993 issue of _American Furniture_, then on the article entitled "The Conservator as Curator: Combining Scientific Analysis and Traditional Connoisseurship."

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/wag/1988/landrey88.pdf

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
I always look to the answers in the wood, perhaps I am just a bit naive. I attach two photos here of a freshly sawn surface of very dense, sweitenia mahogani. The pores are very small, already filled with a whitish substance.
The wood polishes very highly, pretty quickly because it is harder with tiny pores.
This looks to me to be the same stuff I have seen examining some fine pieces of 18th C mahogany; I don't say it is always present, but I think it is common on the very dense examples. In any event, the pore is much smaller and easier to fill than on the sweitenia macrophylla.
I think if you had the right timber, and were aiming for a high polish it would not have taken too much scraping or sanding, after a fellow had used a plane, especiall a fellow that made his livelihood with a plane.
 
Don,

Clearly the PMoA is creating flatter, sparser finishes on their latest jobs.  This article isn't about finishing, tho I know the guy who did it and we've talked about the finish:

http://www.antiquesandfineart.com/articles/article.cfm?request=872

You can kinda see from the photo what sort of finish they were seeking. The color doesn't look quite that uniform in person.  Despite the 1993 article, you're not going to find a lot of shiny furniture in Winterthur.  Al Breed wrote earlier:

"After the finishing conference at Winterthur a few years ago I'm more convinced than ever that there are VERY few truly original finishes. Those early finishes were thin and fugitive and so the pieces that appear to have no finish are probably the "original" ones."

I don't know what to tell you regarding sand paper.  When one looks at Philadelphia ball and claw feet for example, individual facets from the gouge are still evident.  If sand paper was available and used to perfect surfaces, why wasn't it used on feet and cabriole legs?  Seems silly to me to suggest guys sanded surfaces that could be easily scraped but didn't sand surfaces that could have benefitted from it.

Adam

P.S.  About the "original finish" analyses, I don't personally know much (or anything) about the state of the art techniques.  I don't know how they know that a surface with varnish applied to it represents a piece delivered with nothing on it and was subsequently varnished (versus one that came varnished from the manufacturer).  In my mind, there's a difference between an initial finish and the original finish. 

I suspect when Al Breed used the term "fugative" that his understanding is that some period finishes either didn't last or are undectable or were removed or interfered with by later finishes.  Not sure where he learned that, if it reflects his own extensive analyses, etc etc.  That's what I've been told as well (that Philadelphia Chippendale furniture left the manufacturer with little more than oil and beeswax finish).  I hear your point about how they know these things.  I'm most definitiely the wrong guy to ask.  Don't shoot the messenger!
 
Adam et al,

Regarding the finish on the high chest in the article you referenced, I may e-mail Chris Storb to see if he is willing to explain his rationale. It may very well be that he was thinking along lines parallel to the authors of the second article I provided a link to yesterday.

In that case, though they determined the microscopic evidence was consistent with the first finish likely being some kind of resinous varnish, they decided to refinish the piece with several layers of thin-cut garnet shellac (after carefully removing later coatings and leaving the original finish as intact as possible). Their stated purpose for this was to arrive at an "aged" appearance, which they further heightened by stippling the finish with foam brushes and evening the results out with pumice. In other words, they were specifically not going for a finish and appearance consistent with its original, new, state.

As to the use of sand paper, or any other abrasive, I don't think the presence of tool marks in carved areas has any bearing on the topic of surface preparation of non-carved surfaces. I've always thought/understood that carving straight from the tools has more "life" and definition than that which is sanded, and I seriously doubt that 18th century carvers would have seen this any differently.

As to Philadelphia Chippendale leaving the maker with little more than oil and beeswax, I'd like to see some evidence for that. The fact you've been told that isn't very convincing to me. And, on the other side of the ledger, both of the Winterthur studies I provided links to, came up with evidence consistent with the earliest extant finishes being some form of varnish with resins. Resins which were integrated into the surface of the wood, itself. I don't care to get into a semantic game of initial vs. original finishes, as that will not extend our understanding at all.

Further, as I tried to show yesterday, these findings are consistent with textual and pictorial information from the 18th century. Yes, that evidence is indirect and fragmentary, but it is actual evidence and is consistent with Winterthur's research. So I find it relatively convincing. The strength of this approach is that additional evidence can, and will, amend, add-to, or refute it in a way which can only further our understanding. In this regard, I think we live in a particularly exciting time, as additional resources and means of searching, online, open up ever increasing avenues of research.

Obviously, one can decide to rely on hearsay, hunches and opinion rather than attempt to follow the evidence. Though, I don't think this is consistent with a genuine interest in the history of the trade. Rather, it risks turning the past into a fantasy world which is likely to be highly resistant to any “unsettling” evidence.

Finally, toward the end of adding more evidence, I’d like to include some text from _The Builder’s Dictionary: or, Architect’s Companion_, published in 1734. Dealing with the use of varnish, note that it touches, however, briefly, on the quality of the wood surface and its final preparation with an abrasive. The reference to “Colours” may seem a little confusing, but it really only refers to the possibility of the first coat of varnish carrying a pigment if the wood is being colored. Note, also, that the directions clearly assume the varnish will be polished, though to differing degrees in different classes of work.

    “When you lay on your Varnishes, take the following Method.

    "1. If you varnish Wood, let your Wood be very smooth, close grain’d, free from Grease, and rubb’d with Rushes.
    "2. Lay on your Colours as smooth as possible, and if the Varnish has any Blisters in it, take them off by a Polish with Rushes.
    "3. While you are varnishing, keep your Work warm, but not too hot.
    "4. In laying on your Varnish, begin in the Middle, and stroke the Brush to the Outside, then to another extreme Part, and so on till all be covered; for if you begin at the Edges, the Brush will leave Blots there, and make the Work unequal
    "5. In fine Works use the finest Tripoli in polishing: do not polish it at one Time only; but after the first Time, let it dry for two or three Days, and polish it again for the last Time.
    "6. In the first polishing you must use a good deal of Tripoli; but in the next a very little will serve; when you have done, wash off your Tripoli with a Spunge and Water; dry the Varnish with a dry Linnen Rag, and clear the work, if a white Ground, with Oil and Whiting; or if black, with Oil and Lamp-black.”

Not exactly the same, but suggestively similar to the relevant text from Nicholson’s discussion of varnishing in his _Practical Carpentry, Joinery, and Cabinet-Making_ some 92 years later.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

 
Adam- You're right to wonder if sanding was done on feet and legs. I'm convinced after looking at a lot of ball and claw feet that some were sanded after carving. The Newport stuff I think was sanded pretty regularly;  you can see carving tool tracks on obscure places, but the majority of the surface has been smoothed. Also on the Goddard and Townsend shells there are virtually no tool marks. It's true that you can get a really smooth finish right off the tools, but to completely smooth with the carving tools only is so much more work that it's not worth the time. You can get really smooth with a light scraping after carving, and I think that's probably what was done most often, and with scrapers ground to match particular sweeps.-Al
 
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