SAPFM

C

chamfer

Well-known member
Adam,

Since you've resurfaced here on the SAPFM forum, I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask about something you said on WoodCentral, back on August 5. It didn't seem that WoodCentral was the place to pursue this.

In a discussion about drawer construction details in connection with some 18th century furniture in the Philadelphia Museum, you stated:

      "I think the sapfm does a disservice by assembling 'like minded' individuals to discuss 'practical' period furniture making. An organization like that needs to listen to the museum professionals and see the change coming so they can direct their membership accordingly."

This really puzzled me, as it has been my observation that a fairly high percentage of SAPFM members attend seminars at which museum curators and conservators regularly make presentations. And this is nothing recent. I first attended a seminar held at Old Salem NC, in the late 1970's, at which John Bivins and Wallace Gusler, among others, gave presentations concerning various aspects of period furniture, it manufacture, and the history of the trade. That seminar was well attended, and it is my observation that such seminars continue to enjoy enthusiastic participants. Many of whom, I suspect, are, or could be, members of SAPFM.

Additionally, I've been quite impressed by the knowledge, about construction details, etc. of specific pieces or types of 18th century furniture, shared on this forum. Knowledge which often clearly has been derived by a close study of period examples.

In any event, I would be quite interested in knowing just how you feel SAPFM, as an organization, is doing a disservice to its members?

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
I'm sorry I threw you there.  The internet can be great and not great. In this case, I was responding to a previous thread which you probably missed.  It was from Bill Tindal and it referred to the mid year conference at Thaddeus Stevens in which he wrote: 

"The theme of the meeting (sapfm mid year conference) was Practical period furniture making. Everyone I talked to had the same philosophy- prepare surfaces that don't show in the most productive way possible and reproduce in a way faithful to the period surfaces that do show. Mortising machines are not avoided, for example; carving is done as it was 300 years ago. The signature piece at the Philadelphia museum, the high boy, had a sprayed shellac finish."

I'm just not going to agree that this is the best way to make reproduction furniture.  That's my opinion. 

And yeah, I'd much rather see the sapfm concentrate exclusively on period technique and leave its membership to figure out the best way to use a router if that's what they want to do.  There are a lot of places to learn how to use a hollow chisel mortiser.  But there's really no where to learn how drawers were constructed in Philadelphia.  In my opinion, sapfm's members would be better served if the organization focused exclusively on historic techniques and designs, and left "practical techniques" to others. I also think it would be better for sapfm.  Sapfm could become the clearing house for such information.  It could corner the market!  Okay, its a niche market, but its an under served one!

All this sounds good in theory.  Bringing it to fruition is the trick.  I do what I can.  All I can.  And that's the best any of us can do, right?  I'm looking forward to your video!

Adam

 
Well, Adam, now I'm really confused.

You object to "like-minded" people gathering together to discuss "practical period furniture making," but then go on to state your wish that SAPFM would concentrate "exclusively on period technique." It seems to me that a focus on technique is a fairly "practical" one, and a desire for that focus to be "exclusive" sounds very apt to produce a lot of like-mindedness. Or, at least, single-mindedness.

And, even if that were a desirable goal, why is SAPFM doing a disservice if they don't "listen to the museum professionals" to tell the membership what direction they "should" be going? Museum curators are a valuable source of information, on topics such as period paint colors and tectonic details, but they certainly are NOT the exclusive source for information about traditional trade techniques. Besides, I guess I am naively assuming that the members of the organization have some say in its direction and focus.

As I understand it, SAPFM's working definition of "period furniture," is a very broad and non-exlusive one. Personally, I think it may be so broad as to be relatively meaningless, but I think it may gain a good deal of strength by not being exclusive. In any event, if SAPFM's definition of period furniture includes American "craftsman style" pieces, then the use and discussion of machines is entirely "period appropriate" - at least in that context. I may not have any particular interest in such discussions, but I don't feel threatened by them in such a way that I feel an urge to make over the entire organization in my own image.

My personal belief is that many, maybe most, people making individual pieces of furniture (especially eighteenth century style pieces) would benefit from having a good grounding in traditional trade techniques and practices. While I could go into a lengthy, and likely boring, discussion of various situations where hand tools may be a more efficient approach, I believe the main thing hand tools and techniques have to offer, to today's craftspeople, is the ability to design and execute pieces in accordance with their vision/aesthetic, rather than by the dictates of their tooling.

So, I try to participate in this forum on topics where I feel I may have something to offer and/or to learn. The amazing thing is that as long as I take a collegial approach to such discussions, I almost always learn something or gain a new insight - even if I initially get involved to try and pass on some information.  And I don't see honest and principled disagreements as a negative.

Along those lines, I don't find it very helpful when a discussion arises by someone asking how to do something by hand and someone else comes along to tell them they "should" just go ahead and do it by machine. I try to keep that in mind when I'm tempted to respond to a query about machine work by telling them they "should," as a matter of principle,  do it by hand.  I guess I have enough faith in the enabling and enriching aspects of traditional trade techniques that people can decide, on their own, whether they are interested in them or not.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
Can't we all get along ?

My personal interest is in learning how the craftsman used the tools and processes of the day to make things, and to master the tools and skills; but not to slavishly spend the time it takes to use ONLY those tools and techniques when making furniture for my personal use in my home.

I happen to be attracted to the beauty of period furniture, but have virtually no interest in making a whole set of drawers with hand cut dovetails when I know that the dog will probably chew the corners, and the kids them will ding with their toys. 

I don't want to live in a museum, but I do highly value the preservation of the underlying knowledge.

Does that hurt the Society in any way or make me less desirable for membership ?

Karl Kirkman
 
The mission of SAPFM is to pursue the following goals:

    * To create a forum for the understanding, education, and appreciation of American period furniture
    * To develop and encourage the use of standards and ethical practices in the reproduction and conservation of period furniture
    * To offer membership to all with an interest in period furniture
    * To assist members with the identification and location of resources including people or organizations having specialized expertise
    * To conduct public exhibitions for the recognition of members’ work

That sounds good to me.
 
Hi Karl,

"but not to slavishly spend the time it takes to use ONLY those tools and techniques when making furniture for my personal use in my home."

And I'm not suggesting anything different.  I'm not the hand tool police: "HEY!  YOU THERE!  STEP AWAY FROM THE ROUTER WITH YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM!"

We're talking about the information your organization focuses on, not what you do with it.  No one is going to force you to wear a puffy shirt.

Adam
P.S  I think this could be a very funny SNL bit.  The period woodworking police.  "Is that a tape measure in your back pocket son?"  "No officer!  I swear... I wouldn't use a"  "Why aren't you wearing your puffy shirt, Karl?  Okay, Flannigan,  Send for the dog cart.  We're going to have to take this one to the cabinetshop.  Lock him in the wareroom."
 
Adam Cherubini said:
We're talking about the information your organization focuses on, not what you do with it.  No one is going to force you to wear a puffy shirt.

Adam,
As long as it is OUR organization we will focus on these things:

    * To create a forum for the understanding, education, and appreciation of American period furniture
    * To develop and encourage the use of standards and ethical practices in the reproduction and conservation of period furniture
    * To offer membership to all with an interest in period furniture
    * To assist members with the identification and location of resources including people or organizations having specialized expertise
    * To conduct public exhibitions for the recognition of members’ work

The goal is to be inclusive. Many members have a great store of knowledge and are willing to share it. Others are seeking various types of knowledge. Offer to share what you know and be willing to learn from others. Sometimes it just boils down to getting together for coffee or a beer. Stop by and have a beer sometime. There is room for you in here too.
Mike
Click to expand...
 
Adam,
It is important to keep in mind that the goals of SAPFM are accomplished by volunteers. The best way to get a goal accomplished is to volunteer. Join the group, bring your friends, start a chapter devoted to handtools and period methods, make it happen. SAPFM is not doing a disservice it just needs you to do this service.

As to theory, I am a full time wood worker, I use hand tools and the tools at hand.  I have to compete in todays world. Sometimes I can do that with yesterday's methods. As an engineer could you compete using 18th century methods with those that weren't? 
I have a personal belief that you can learn everything you need to know about woodworking (theory) in 15 minutes,  the rest is practice.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Yogi Berra

"Mike, I'm an engineer.  I guess I believe that teaching the theory and dealing with the application later is a good idea!" Adam Cherubini

This sounds like we agree.
 
Adam,
I would dearly love it if the SAPFM *HAD* the information to disseminate!

However, this is, at root, a club. A club will only have available what the club members contribute.

Museums are the result of a club (society) deciding that they would be willing to finance the research and exposition of said research.

SAPFM does not have the same or adequate resources to just mandate the research, so, as all social clubs do, we call on the members to contribute.

Yes, it means that I must ask questions, and follow leads to the people who know the info I desire. But I have never failed to eventually get an answer.

Just my thoughts,
Mike
 
"As for the sapfm, this discussion has come and gone countless times before and I've never seen anything change.  The desire for the sorts of things I'm talking about seems to be coming from outside the organization."

Not true.  Many of us joined specifically because we were interested in period practices and techniques, and the SAPFM journals and the forum have quite a bit of information on "how it was done".  That said, there's also a lot of information on "how to make it look like the original"  using modern alkyd varnish and without actually making your own long-oil varnish from amber/copal, mastic and boiled linseed oil.

I think this comes about for a reason:

Many of the members are professionals that rely on furniture making for their living, and the reality is that the market generally will not pay for exact replicas of pieces down to the interior joinery, tertiary surfaces, period glues and period fasteners.  After all, it sucks to starve to death while hand-filing your own iron screws. ;-)

That doesn't mean that some of us amateur members aren't very interested in descriptions of the old methods of work, hardware and finishes.  As a chemical engineer, I was very interested in Jeffrey Greene's appendix on period finishing formulas, and have actually made some of them, but that doesn't mean that I'd want to rely on these formulations for pieces that I was going to sell.

Besides, it's currently impossible to exactly reproduce a colonial piece of furniture because you generally cannot obtain wrought iron period nails and screws, the white and red lead necessary to reproduce the paints and varnishes, and the brass drawer pulls, etc... that would be metallurgically similiar to the period hardware.

So at what point would you want to draw the line - would you really want to see an extensive article in Period American Furniture on the chemical composition of the lead salts used in the 1700s to produce boiled linseed oil?
 
Adam,
I understand what you want from SAPFM or some other group. A handy source for hard and fast facts for how things were done in the 18th century, photos and measured drawings would be nice. The problem is that most of our members have an interest in 18th century furniture, not an expertise in its history and construction. This is basically a large chat group that gets together in real life once in a while. The only thing a person looking for information can do is ask specific questions and hope for someone with knowledge of the subject to answer. Sometimes SAPFM can get a foot in the door at a museum. No one would argue that the research doesn't need to be available, we just don't have the information to share. I have found that the best way to get the information is to do the research yourself. The benefit to SAPFM membership is that someone might invite you to stay at their house while you are doing your research. Considering that before SAPFM there was nothing and no one to talk to this has been a great improvement for me. At least I have a group of people to commiserate with about the difficulty of of getting information on furniture construction in the 18th century.
Mike
 
Everybody,

Even though the title of this thread was very inflammatory to me, I have enjoyed reading it.  Mike Siemsen, Don McConnell, Mike Holden, and Dkeller, you make me feel proud and honored to be associated with this group. 

In my day job, I have seen public attacks and I knew I could not let this thread go without a response.  But like many of us, I have been very busy for the last several months, and I could not find the time to write a response until now (Snow Day!!). 

Mike, Don, Mike and Dkeller, Collectively, y’all have done an extremely good job of defending SAPFM.  You have also defined who we are, and how this group works.  THANK YOU!!!!!  Your comments have been hitting the nails on the head.

Adam, I think you want what we all want: the Holy Grail on period furniture with all of the answers and mysteries revealed.  Prior to this thread, I don’t think you really realized who we were and how new of an organization we are.  We are a very young Society, or in Mike Holden words “a club.”  And, a club is really who we are.  We are made up of members with diverse backgrounds and a common interest in period furniture.  That includes several of our members who are museum curators.  We even had a curator helping to lead this organization on the Executive Council. 

The whole reason that SAPFM came to be was because period furniture makers were few and far between.  What was worst was the lack of information on the subject.  Just finding someone to talk to about period furniture was a treat.  One of the first things the organization did was to print a directory of its membership.  You might find someone 10 miles away that you didn’t know about.  I have called a member to discuss something he said on the forum.  I ended up calling the wrong member, but we still talked about woodworking for 2-1/2 hours and he said call back anytime.  This is a social club that puts you in contact with other like minded people.  And together, we can help each other solve our problems.

As was mentioned in this thread, if you have a problem, ask the question.  Hopefully someone will know the answer or be able to direct you to someone who does, but you will learn something.  I have floated a few questions out there, and the responses totally change my direction on a few issues. 

I am just a regular woodworker who started out watching Norm on TV.  I now run the Ohio River Valley Chapter.  Our Spring 2008 meeting will focus on how to build a period chair.  We are going to start by looking at several originals, developing plans, making patterns, making a prototype, and then making the chair.  I will also say that these presentations have a lot of audience participation with alternatives methods, thoughts and ideas.  They are very informative!!  That is not bad for a club and you are not going to find that kind of information on TV.  Also as part of my “non-paid” SAPFM duties, I help others who want to start a local SAPFM Chapter.  I will help them with ideas, suggestions and a list of membership. 

In one of our Executive Council strategic planning meetings, we have talked about a “pie-in-the-sky” utopia of having a museum, a research center, and a school to teach period furniture.  That dream will cost 10s of millions, if not 100s of millions of dollars and decades of research to achieve.  Maybe one day, we will achieve that dream.

For now, as with any club, we are driven almost totally by membership participation.  The EC does not direct nor limit the focus of any discussion, nor do we require that only appropriate period construction methods be discussed.  We have members of all different skill levels and interests.  To some, their only sharp tools are carbide tipped blades/bits.  We cannot ignore these people.  We need to help them learn how to sharpen their tools and learn period methods and techniques.  We need to help them learn how to go “cordless” [a Kaare Loftheim (CW journeyman cabinetmaker) phrase].  I used to be one of those guys.  I can now go cordless, if and when I choose.  I mainly thank my dad, SAPFM, and Colonial Williamsburg for that education.  We all need to be open-minded, listen to different points of views and always be respectful of each others opinions.  Flaming people just kills the conversations that we need and drives people away.

Sometimes as Engineers, we get too narrowly focused in the weeds and lose sight of our real objectives.  We need to step back, understand that our vision is “to preserve the craft” of period furniture.  As individual, we have limited access for information.  As a collective, we can be more effective in preserving that knowledge a little piece at a time.  Ask the Forum questions, and you will get answers.  And maybe one day, we will be the Holy Grail of period furniture.  Let’s use that vision, and work together. 

ASK QUESTIONS!!!

Pampine, whether you like it or not, you ARE a member of this organization because you participate and add value to the discussions.  You maybe a non-dues paying member, but mentally, you have already joined.  Welcome! 

Cheers,
David
 
I am *very* new to this forum and furniture of a period before 1900. I too have read this thread with interest.

As it wasn't begun by Adam. Adam didn't pick the title or subject of the thread.

My admittedly newbie view is the original poster began any perceived hostility by publically beginning a conversation directed at an individual that began on another forum and that potentially could polarize views of SAPFM. Of course, that premise presupposes there is hostility to begin with. I don't think so nor think it ought to have that effect.

What I see here--and I could well be wrong--is simply an exchange of ideas to improve what exists. Everyone most likely does have differing visions of what SAPFM is or should be just as they have differing visions of how to go about making stuff--I do on both accounts. This thread is merely a chance to express publically those differing personal views as to how to improve or clarify SAPFM's misson.

Take care, Mike
 
As a “Public Service,” here is a link to the thread that started it all: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=112775&v1=e2vrt43&v2=Rockler&v4=Porter+Cable+tool&v5=nx3we6g
If you have a couple of hours to read it through, you’ll see why Don was standing up for SAPFM. I have to agree that it was disconcerting to see our organization trashed on another forum.

When I was at the Mid-Year Conference, I met some of the nicest, most generous people I’ve ever run into and I learned something from almost everyone I was lucky enough to talk to. The same holds true for members that I’ve talked with on the phone and haven’t even met. Many have told me that there is too much attitude and intimidation on the forum so they don’t participate. That’s a shame because we have a real talent pool out there and I’d love to hear from more members, not less. Like my mother always says, “if you don’t have anything good to say”…well, you know the rest. We’re only here for a short time, so why don’t we make the most of it?

Happy Woodworking!

Craig
 
Well, I suppose I am thick-headed and just don't see what the problem is. After reading through (again) the WC thread (I had originally read it when penned), the most controversial thing written was the quote in Don's first post.

Gotta wonder why a thread from another forum 4 months previous is suddenly plopped in here? Not that it really matters. Seems still a good topic for conversation.

I also think defining what one means is important. While I don't have an 18th century dictionary, my desk dict. offers two possible definitions with widely different meanings. One is harmful or injurious service while the other is inadequate service.

While I would love to make it to these conferences and discuss such things face to face, I'll have a long island iced tea instead of the beer if and when I ever get there. It's better for my health...

Take care, Mike
 
If nothing else, this thread shows that forum members do agree and disagree so they aren’t as like minded as reported elsewhere.

Thanks for the link to the original thread. It seems SAPFM formed a conference and coordinated a Museum tour to learn from Curators and the collection. Presumably, it was open to anyone that wanted to join regardless of their preference for tool use, skill level, or age. After the curator showed a dovetail feature that can’t be done with power tools, the SAPFM speakers showed the conference attendees why they make the cut with a dovetail saw. Like Don, I would have wondered why, in the same thread, anyone would claim that sapfm was doing a disservice to its members for not paying attention to curators and not teaching how to do period furniture with hand tools. Why bring it up now? If I claimed sapfm was doing a disservice, I think it would be hypocritical to then take advantage of its forum services to further my own purposes, without rational clarification. I’ll end with a quote also from the original thread “serious minded furniture makers, under the age of 50, should bear this in mind.” 
 
All,
What is important here is what you get out of the infomation that is presented. I work only with hand tools and, to me, it is the journey not the destination that matters. I enjoy the research and useing 18th century tools when I can find and afford them. I have a complex molding plane from 1750 that works just as good today as it did in 1750. I get such satisfaction when I use it and a nice looking molding.  This process may not be for everyone but it sure is fun. I think learning is what is important and enjoy the journey.

mark 
 
I have been following this thread and thought it was time to add my two cents.  Saying that SAPFM does a disservice is just plain silly in my opinion and Im not even a memeber.  The general interest is in period furniture, how you achieve a result.. well there is more than one way to skin a cat and they all can be correct. 

I make a living making period and custom furniture(mostly period) and do a fair amount of high end antique restoration.  I do not have the luxury of exclusively using hand tools etc. as Adam wants.  I would just plain starve.  The buying public/my clients really do not care wether I use hand tools or not, or even know how it is made exactly.  THey are after a certain look.  Be it a clean art deco desk were the client/dec. shows up with a tape measure to see if it is made to spec, or working for a dealer(some do not even know how it is made), filling out a period set of chairs with color matching and distressing.  This leads into a whole other realm of the antiques world and the dishonest dealers and unsuspecting clients, I could go on...  Dkeller- yes there are people that make a living copying surfaces, joinery... but no I do not file my owns screws but have a huge collection of period screws.  This is getting of subject now a little maybe.

I guess there will always be a difference of opinion on the use of hand tools vs machines etc.  There will always be a difference b/w a hobbyist and a professional.  If I find myself standing in a pile of plane shavings.... I know I am loosing money.  The power of the almight dollar may change your stance.  Adam, if you were to attempt to make a living at making furniture, would you use all hand tools?  Please do not take offense to this question.  I really do respect your stance toward it.  It is just not realistic when money is involved. 




       
 
With my apologies to Steve:

I have some observations that I offer not as arguments to any of the above but just simply my thoughts related to period furniture making.

It is very difficult for me to admire and study a particular period piece of furniture without having some understanding of the technology and techniques that were available during the period in which the piece was constructed.  To me, a piece of period furniture would lack a critical dimension absent some understanding of its historical context. 

Early craftsmen were not generally hobbyists.  They made furniture to make a living or to fill a personal storage or other need.  They used hand tools because that was the technology available.  They made choices about construction and wood preparation and dimensioning based on the limits of their knowledge and of hand tool technology.  These limits, and other things, all contribute to defining the historical context of the piece.  We are not, nor should we be, surprised that the 18th Century case piece we are studying was made with hand planned wood, or with hand cut dovetails, or with wood that may have a rough unfinished side. 

While the shop “machines” for the early craftsmen were limited to their ranks of indentured servants or apprentices, we should not forget that some of these earlier cabinetmakers were indeed innovators and were likely always looking for ways to increase their production and to decrease costs.  If TimberKing bandsaw mills had been available to the early craftsman, how much wood would have still been ripped over a pit?  If John Townsend had a good source for Baltic Birch plywood would he still have used less stable solid wood for his drawer bottoms?

Today, we all have choices in the technologies and techniques we can use for constructing period furniture reproductions.  This Forum ought to be the place where all these ideas are shared and openly discussed.  “Practical period furniture making” could be anything from – “I don’t pit saw my lumber; I buy it at a lumberyard.” – to – “I first dimension my lumber with machine and then hand plane.” –or – “I use only hand tools and hide glue.”   If you aren’t buying the piece or putting it in your museum, why should you care?   I think misplaced zeal stifles the important sharing of ideas that ought to be the staple of this Forum. I for one want to “hear” from you on the Forum even if you use nails (Please, hand wrought only!) instead of dovetails to assemble the drawers in your case piece!

One final thought:  What if the Shakers had had biscuit joiners?   That might not be too far fetched a thought – recent reading (Pop Wood) leads me to believe the Shakers used pocket screws to make step stools! (I jest!)  And yes, I will still keep paying for and reading that magazine.

Kent Ryan
 
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