Old Chisels just for show?

M

macchips4

Well-known member
Well I fell for it again, I purchased an old "greaves" chisel. Very thin blade nice old handle looked good. But after sharpening the bevel, flattening the back....disappointed again. The edge just dose not stand up, it rolls over, to soft or whatever.
   I'll see a demonstration or magazine article with someone using nice looking old chisels and feel jealous. But every time i acquire some,(punch addis buck etc) The edges just do not compare to modern chisels and they just wind up looking good but"hanging on the wall".
     I have some sorbys I purchased in the 80s from garret wade, although the edge does not compare to my Lie Nielsens, they are the ones I usually go to. The L-N are good but I wish the blade was thiner. I was thinking of trying a set of Ray Iles  Mark2s from Joel Moskowitz. Any Comments or similar experiences??
Joe
 
Joe,

The possibility exists that you have bought tools that were incorectly sharpened by the previous owner, resulting in loss of physical properties of the metal.

Also, be aware that at least theoretically, the sharpening angle of edge tools is a function of the physical properties of the blade material.

I am not saying that these are any more than possibilities, but from my own personal experience with Buck chisels from the early 1900s I am surprised at your disappointment.


Karl
 
I agree about the Lie Nielsen's being too thick, especially in the wider widths, but my A2 blades are great for pounding with a mallet. For paring and dovetailing, I use old Buck butt and paring chisels. I've never had a problem with edge retention on any of them. the long paring chisels are sharpened in the neighborhood of 25 degrees, and the butt chisels are closer to 30. Greaves are older, if memory serves, but maybe you have Buck from the 50s or 60s? Maybe the really old tools that survived mostly full length did so because they never did hold an edge.

I started flattening a billet of boxwood last night, using my Lie Nielsen low angle jack. Half a dozen strokes in, something felt and sounded wrong, and the surface looked like I was working it with a toothing blade. The edge crumpled like a Borg block plane. That's really tough wood to do that to a good A2 blade. Sometimes it just happens.
 
John- I've had no luck with A2 steel- same breakdown you describe. It's too hard and brittle.-Al
 
I would hasten to add that "old" chisels mean quite different things to different people.

In the late 50s I tried acquiring some then "new" Buck Brothers chisels becaause of my wonderful experience with those of my mentors who likely bought theirs in the 30s.  Even by the 50s the chisel steel just seemed to  not be "what it used to be ", and yet there are those reading this who might consider a 1955 chisel "old".

To say a little more about blade sharpening angles and materials, I believe I am correct to say that the combination of hardness and strength is related to whether the blade is to be used in primarily in compression - as in cross grain cutting with a mallet  -  versus bending - spltting/shaving/prying.

That being the case, I believe there is an optimum sharpening angle to use as a function of the steel properties/ characteristics, and similarly certain steels and anglesare probably better suited to each type of cutting. I could not go to the board and derive the relationships, but I have seen this covered in texts.


Karl
 
I know that I have a habit of putting too low of and angle on the blades and try to compensate by a higher secondary bevel...But... all the "older chisels seem to have too many "Personalities" as far as the edge retention/characteristics. Both the sorbys and the LN seem just to work well without experimenting with bevel angles. i just sharpen and get back to work.
    I am a sucker for thin blades it just looks right. anyway has any one tried the Mark2 chisels from Tools for working wood?
I also found on the "best things" site a set of sorby chisels with thiner baldes than the regular bench chisel.
Joe
 
Al - I like my A2 chisels very much, not so much for fine work, but for pounding. They are also ground at around 35 degrees. The plane blade I mentioned is at 25 degrees. That made the effective cutting angle about 37 degrees, which was nice for shooting especially. I'm going to put a 35 degree bevel on it and attack the boxwood again, and see how the edge holds up.

From what I've read, angles lower than 30 or 35 degrees don't hold up well in A2. I'm interested to see how the higher angle works.
 
I've had good luck with old chisels.  What I do is make sure there are no pits on the back.  Next, I rub the metal between my hands and "sniff for nickel."  Try this, you will get an unusual aroma if the steel used to make the blade has a high nickel content.  This was a trick I learned from a houswright and it has not failed me yet.

Joe
 
I have some sorbys I purchased in the 80s from garret wade, although the edge does not compare to my Lie Nielsens, they are the ones I usually go to. The L-N are good but I wish the blade was thiner. I was thinking of trying a set of Ray Iles  Mark2s from Joel Moskowitz. Any Comments or similar experiences??

Hi Joe

Have you considered re-heat treating your chisels? That should be an easy enough job.

Alternatively, if you are looking for new parers that have long, thin blades, have a look at the Blue Spruce fare. I have the shorter dovetail chisels in A2 steel and they are excellent in every way: the handles are superb, overall the balance is excellent, and the steel takes and hold an edge as sharp as you could wish for.

I do not worry much about the bevel angle - it is more important how sharp the edge can get and how well it cuts. Note that Japanese chisels are typically bevelled at 30 degrees, and even the cheapest are amongst the best at getting sharp and holding an edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
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