Need veneer experience and wisdom

Woodmolds

Woodmolds

Well-known member
When veneering are there times when a balanced panel is not necessary? Such as a small panel say 8” X 20” that will be incorporated into a box(or drawer front) that has dovetailed or rabetted corners. Would a core of say maple with a veneer of curly maple on one side be acceptable. If it needed veneer on both sides would curly on one side and plain on the back work (i.e. both sides same species)? Is it acceptable to use a solid wood of lower quality(knot free) as a core and face veneer both sides? Would it be better to use the core material that is the same species as the faces or would secondary woods work just as well? When using materials as cores is plain sawn as good as quarter sawn? Are some species better than others as cores? Hardwood? Softwood?

My reasoning for these questions is I want to do some panels for chest, cases and drawer fronts and make use of some figured veneers I have, but have a hard time coming to grips with using MDF cores. I have the equipment (or access to) that would make it fairly easy to produce the cores I need for most any size panel I would use. I’m looking to produce panels that will last many years with minimal deterioration (splitting & warping). Will the extra effort be successful?

Thanks, Tony
 
I am in the process of researching an upcoming project, which is a burl walnut knee hole desk c1710 (see the attached pics for an example).  A characteristic of these desks is the use of highly figured Walnut veneers w/ are frequently laid "cross wise" to the usual grain direction (the grain on the drawer fronts runs vertically instead of horizontally). I have had the good fortune of being able to examine a number of period examples, and can state that the drawer fronts on all of them were built up as follows; a core of rift or sometimes vertical grain
wood (a.k.a. "quarter sawn"), with veneer applied to the face on one side only. I have not seen a single desk where the inner side of the drawer was lined with veneer. Happily, I can report that I haven't observed a single instance of bow/warp/twisted drawer fronts from the
unbalanced veneer construction. I should add the caveat that these desks are tiny, so all the drawer fronts are typically less than 36" long. The most common problems I've seen with these are with the banding that often surrounds the drawer fronts (pieces come loose and get lost) and the cracks and missing pieces in the "cross grain" moldings on the drawer dividers and other moldings that are used to cover the bracket feet and edge the top.

I have a fair amount of experience using veneers, and originally became fascinated with the knee hole  desks because they seem to defy everything I have learned as good veneering practice. Despite their naive construction, the majority of them have held up quite well after three centuries. They all do exhibit problems though, but I'd say no more so than any other ancient piece of veneered furniture.

While trolling the auction houses, estates, etc.. looking for these desks, I found plenty of later examples of chests of drawers where the veneer ran the long ways and was of unbalanced construction as well. My observation was that all of these have held up especially well.

A short summary of my observations:
- All the desks had shown evidence of repairs in their lifetime.
- The majority of them were made w/ oak as the secondary wood on the drawers (and often the top), and pine (or perhaps deal?) on the sides/back/dividers.
Therefore these were probably all of English origin?
- All the desks appeared to be glued with hide glue, and it appears likely they were restored using the same.
- I would gestimate that average veneer thickness on these was about 1/20", w/ is about twice as thick as the average modern commercial veneer thickness (1/42")
- All the desks showed some signs of cracking, lifting, missing veneer, etc... but I wouldn't attribute any of this to unbalanced veneer construction, nor to using solid wood as the core. I think it fair to state that all these problems were the result of the cross grain edging that was common during this period and was typically left unprotected.
-I have observed that the drawers that were protected with cock bead molding have held up remarkably well.
-I have also observed that frequently the carcass sides are veneered on one side only over knotty pine, and that all of these have also remained quite flat.  If the knots telegraphed through the veneer, then it wasn't noticable.

Based on my observations of these period examples, I would conclude that applying veneering over a solid lumber core to the front only of a well dovetailed holds up extremely well. I would concentrate on protecting the edges of the drawer with either a cockbead, or a solid lumber thumbnail edge rather than worrying about the unbalanced veneer construction.

For what its worth, my plans for my desk are as follows:
- I plan to do the unbalanced veneer glueing w/ hide glue. My understanding is that hide glue is a tad more resistant to creep than PVA (white/yellow) glues. Perhaps this matters? If nothing else, it will be easier to repair in the future.
- I plan to use clear, rift sawn or better wood as the core. Since our modern veneers are thinner than the old sawn veneers, I do not want to risk having any of the knots telegraph through.
- Since I plan to reproduce all the "cross grain" stuff on my desk, I will ensure the the veneer is as dry as possible before starting this project. I hear the old timers would store it next to the stove for a few days before laying it down. (I'm not sure what I will do, but I will concoct something!) Where the veneer runs longways, such as on the sides/top, I will do nothing to predry the veneer.

I hope this helps,

JB
 

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Thanks for your input and observations.

"- I would guesstimate that average veneer thickness on these was about 1/20", w/ is about twice as thick as the average modern commercial veneer thickness (1/42")"

Do you think the thinner modern veneers are better or worse?

"- All the desks showed some signs of cracking, lifting, missing veneer, etc... but I wouldn't attribute any of this to unbalanced veneer construction, nor to using solid wood as the core. I think it fair to state that all these problems were the result of the cross grain edging that was common during this period and was typically left unprotected."

Do you attribute this to expansion &/or contraction to - Poor surface preparation? Quality of glue? Type of glue? Are the cold press veneer glues available now as good as hide type glues?

Could the lifted and cracked veneers on drawer fronts also be attributed to poor surface prep or veneer left proud of the substrate? Or will crossbanding always be subject to failure?

I've noticed alot of Ogee clocks have veneer failure, but wonder how much surface prep and glue come into play. Or could alot of this come from storage and handling over the years? I have some mold for Ogee clocks I made with the cross grain veneer on one side only that has been laying in my shop for well over two years unfinished. All the pieces look to still be flat on the back side.

I already suspected much of what you have said about cores, but needed confirmation from someone with experience to confirm. I suspect that knots left in the cores unless very small will telegraph thru our newer thinner veneers. Having access to qtr. sawn material is not a problem for me so I'm leaning towards using that also.

Thanks, Tony
 
Tony - I'd definitely suggest obtaining a copy of "Fine Woodworking On Marquetry and Veneer" from your local used book store or www.alibris.com.  I picked one up for $3 at my local bookshop, and it's full of some very eye-opening information.  One question you asked is "Is the old veneer better than the modern veneer"?  The article in the book makes it pretty clear that the answer is emphatically "old veneer", at least when discussing veneer that's old enough to have been sawn instead of sliced.  The slicing process introduces knife checks that in some cases goes right through to the "good side" of the veneer.

Another source is Robert Millard's website and blog.  If there's someone alive that has made more veneered period furniture, I haven't heard of them. 

JB - That's a pretty cool desk, but are you sure of the date?  Most of the period sources I've read have suggested that 1/8" is about as thin as veneer got before the advent of semi-modern machinery in the 19th century.  Regardless, it's a neat design - is it pictured in a book (that I could look up)?

David
 
David,
I have the FWW book. I was not too impressed when I got it, maybe I'll review it again. My go to book is "The Marquetry Course" by Metcalfe & Apps. I've gleaned alot of insight about cutting and laying up faces from this book. I understand what you're saying about the new sliced veneers vs the sawn veneers. I still wonder about thickness, from a pure structural stand point for longevity, which would give the least problems when glued up to solid cores and the reasoning behind it. Sliced veneers present their own problems, as far as bleed thru and face versus back, but putting that aside won't they be more forgiving to expansion and contraction if bonded with a good cold press glue to a decent substrate(preferably solid).  While I know I'm looking for support for my ideas, I'm not so hardheaded or ignorant as to ignore the tried and true methods, but would like to blend them with modern technology if possible.

I not a purist in that I feel the need to saw my own veneers. I respect people that go to that much effort. I don't have the patience for that much manual labor.  I use a mix of power tools and hand tools and can understand that no machine can duplicate a hand cut dovetail.  I'm more concerned on my part to have good proportion, good joinery, good materials, good finish, and an expectation of durability if cared for properly.

I have worked my whole life with wood, from cutting out things on the band saw when I was 10 or so till now 44 years later. I have always wanted to do furniture, but never took the leap to do it full time. I have made a living at woodworking and because I have I think my perspective is different(not better, just different) than someone who does it as a hobby. I feel the time has come to do it more if I'm ever going to. I've done everything from residential and commercial cabinets to architectural millwork, which I enjoy. I'm not interested in doing production furniture, but I realize the benefits of producing several of an item at a time. And because I sometimes have a short attention span, I want to do pieces that appeal to me and it would be nice to reap the benefits of my efforts. I guess I'm rambling now, but thanks for your time and everyone else's time and input.

Thanks again, Tony
 
This is just my opinion, but I would think sliced veneer would be less stable over a long period of time than sawn veneer, precisely because of the knife checks.  The simple reason is that it takes less stress to propagate a crack than it does to initiate one, and if the veneer is already full of cracks, it doesn't take much to widen them.

Perhaps that's why early Federal period furniture has stood up so well over the 2 centuries since it was made, even though it went through extreme humidity cycling over the first 150 years.

That said, you're right that sawing your own veneer is considerably more effort than buying it, though I do it fairly regularly at the bandsaw.  Another point is that it's extremely unlikely that you're going to find wood in board form with anything near the figure that you can get with commercial veneer, as the highly figured material is generally gobbled up by the veneer buyers while still in log form.

If you want to use thicker veneer to achieve a more authentic result, you might consider contacting Berkshire Veneers - they sell commercially produced veneer that's up to 1/16" thick.
 
"The simple reason is that it takes less stress to propagate a crack than it does to initiate one, and if the veneer is already full of cracks, it doesn't take much to widen them."

I can see the logic in that. Point well taken. As far as sawing veneer, I guess I was thinking more of hand sawing than band sawing. Using the bandsaw and wide belt would make short work of making veneer. The better argument against sawing your own veneers is, probably as you say finding the quality of materials to use. In fact I do have some 1/16" thick veneers, but they are run of the mill plain sliced Walnut & Cherry. Most of the crotch veneers I have seem to be thicker than normal veneers(except for some Walnut burls). The way I'm looking at this is using veneers for figure, if I'm using plain-sliced or quartered material I see little reason not to use solid material. The exception being to add decorative or cross bandings.

Thanks, Tony
 
That makes sense about the crotch and burl veneers being thicker than the usual 1/40 of an inch.  Since the burl/crotch has a lot of areas that are end-grain, I'd think very thinly sliced material would just crumble.

There's a post on Rob Millard's blog about the difficulties he had with one particular piece of crotch veneer.  I wonder if some of those problems were caused by the knife checks that are described in the FWW book.  The post is well worth reading, even if only as a cautionary tale.
 
- The point about the checking on the sliced veneers makes sense, but I bet that the choice of wood used for the banding is a more important consideration. From inspecting a fairly wide variety of period pieces at local auction houses, I've noticed that when Brazilian Rosewood is used as the banding species, it always checks - period. Most of the Walnut has checked as well. But Satinwood, and especially Mahogany, hold up well (both favorites of the Federal period). I've also inspected a number of good quality reproduction pieces, Most of which were probably manufactured with thin sliced veneer on a ground of plywood. I don't recall seeing checking in the Mahogany banding on the repro's, or at least it wasn’t' noticeable enough for me to take note of it.  I wouldn't bet on the 'ole "modern glue" argument as the reason, nor do I think that using plywood is the reason either. If you lay banding along the grain, the wood is effectively as stable as plywood, since solid wood doesn't shrink along the grain. My guess, is that the percentage amount a wood shrinks from winter/summer may be a more important consideration?

"I've read have suggested that 1/8" is about as thin as veneer got before the advent of semi-modern machinery in the 19th century ..."
- I'm quite sure about the age of the desks. I don't believe there's a hard rule about thickness of veneer. I know I can slice veneer quite a bit thinner than that by eye, and I have limited experience. I've also found that even if I saw the veneer to 1/16", by the time it's laid down, planed and scraped flat, it's substantially thinner.

"Regardless, it's a neat design - is it pictured in a book (that I could look up)?"
Masterpieces of Furniture in Photographs and Measured Drawings, by Verna Cook Salomonsky. ISBN-13: 978-0486213811 - has some good measured drawings of a very similar desk. It's one of my favorite pattern books. The picture of the desk I posted is actually a random example from my collection of photos, so the one in Salomonsky's book is a tad different.

"The Marquetry Course" by Metcalfe & Apps" - I just added it to my shopping cart - thanks!  :) 

And a question; how did you lay down the veneer on the ogee clock? What did you use to clamp the veneer around the curved form? How did you make the veneer flexible before gluing?

JB

 
BTW: I forgot to ask, does anyone know if drying the banding veneer to an extremely low moisture content before laying it down helps w.r.t. mitigating checking?
 
"how did you lay down the veneer on the ogee clock? What did you use to clamp the veneer around the curved form? How did you make the veneer flexible before gluing?"

I haven't done the clocks yet just the ogee mold. Actually this is much simpler than it seems. The profile is not that deep, it's just mitered on an incline? I ran the material so it is reversible. Two pieces nested with veneer for each piece and wax paper between the two pieces of veneer to keep any squeeze out from sticking them together. I'll try and attach some photos. It will become clear. The veneer does not have to be softened, just flat with some overhang to trim. I used crossgrain mahogany and some mottled makore & some figured maple(both of these are long grain). I see no problem using any type veneer. I going to try some walnut burls. I have seen this same mold used to make mirror frames. It makes a nice frame.

Tony

There are more photos here - http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/woodmolds/Clock%20Mold/
 

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Another interesting note - or not. I glued 1/8" thick cork to one piece between two nested pieces and used it as a formed sanding block. You can glue a piece of 100 grit sand paper to one piece and seat the cork block to it by sanding the cork. I sanded the mold with progressively finer grits down to about 320. The sand marks do not show in the finish. I did this in longer lengths before I mitered it or angled the edges. I also allowed some extra to trim on the width, about an 1/8" each edge.

Tony
 
Very, very, very cool! It looks like a perfect, and I mean perfect match to the Ogee clock I have at home.

OK, so let me see if I understand this; you mold the Postive and Negative molds. You don't require they match exactly. Instead you glue a thin piece of cork to one of the molds surface the two molds so that they match exactly by rubbing them together w/ sandpaper in between?  Did I get this right? I think I missed something?

On a similar topic; have you had any experience with cross grain mouldings? That's where you mould edges w/ the grain going the "cross' direction. It was all the rage in the early 1700's, and was used to edge tables and make mouldings that are small, like 1" wide or less.

Thanks for sharing!

JB
 
"It looks like a perfect, and I mean perfect match to the Ogee clock I have at home."

I was fortunate enough to have a friend that had inherited an Ogee clock that I was able to look at and compare my work with(hence the sample).

First, let me say I have a six head moulder and about 20 years practice doing architectural restoration & reproduction of moldings.

The mold I ran for the ogee is "one piece". If split in half it would be a mirror reverse. The positive and negative are the same piece! Take one piece and turn it over and around and it nests perfectly into the other piece. I use a piece of veneer for each piece(top & bottom) with a piece of wax paper between the two pieces of veneer. The top picture(ogee2) is two pieces as they were glued(face to face) minus the wax paper.

After this has been glued, clamped and set-up you have two pieces. No cauls or forms needed. I then need to sand the veneer. I use a scrap of the same mold that I veneered, and by gluing a piece of 1/8" cork to it and using a reverse piece to clamp it up I have made a sanding block that fits my ogee mold. If this piece does not fit perfectly, I glue a piece of 100 grit sandpaper to the piece(3M contact) I used to clamp it with. I can then rub either piece to the other to have a perfect match. I'll be happy to post some more pictures at photobucket if you'd like. More of a step by step if you will.

"have you had any experience with cross grain mouldings?"

A little, I have run plinth blocks for casings with molded edges. The plinth I ran the last time were to match some existing from an older home. They were about 1-1/2" thick X 5-1/2" wide X 10" long(or Tall). They had a profile similar to a 1-3/4" wide base cap, at the top front only. We used SYPine which I was very concerned about as to chip out, but it worked out great. The knives must be kept sharp. I can see doing some small moulding with simple profiles, because they would most likely have to be sanded. If you are doing longer pieces, I can see gluing them to a backer first with good glue joints between the butted pieces. It seems doable, but who knows till you try. Do you have pictures of the mold you want to produce? What species? I'd be willing to help if you wanted.

Tony
 
Curious, Tony -

Since you've a friend that has an original Ogee bracket clock, have you been able to identify the ground for the veneer on the original?  I'd be curious about the species, whether it was long-grain solid pieces, or if it was a lamination of some sort.

While these clocks don't fetch a lot on the antique market, I don't know anyone that has one nor any reference that describes how the original ones were made.

JB- Thanks for the reference on the book.  Ironically, I just received Salomonsky in the mail last week, and I'll look it up.
 
At the time I was looking at his, I was not to concerned about the other details. I think all but the veneered part of the frame was made of poplar. Pretty sure the back and dial support was some type pine. It may be a while before I get to see it again, he lives about an hour away and I only go see him when he orders some moldings to use in his cabinet shop. In searching the internet for these to see the various types most seem to have mahogany or walnut veneer for the frames and sometimes the sides of the case the rest appears to be secondary wood. Maybe I'll have to dust off that project and work on it some. I have some quarter sawn poplar for the cases. I don't recall where I got most of my information when I was drawing these up and gathering materials. The lower glass and dials are still available, but the works would be newer(deeper). Even the original cast type weights and pulleys(& pulley covers) are still available.

Tony
 
Much Obliged for the info on the original's construction.  There's an early one of these in the geologist's library in the North Carolina State Capital building here in Raleigh.  Shockingly (for post 9/11 times), they let anyone walk around the building (built in the 1830's) on tours, despite some very expensive antiques on display.

I may be able to get down there sometime this week and ask one of the tour guides if they'll let me closely examine the Ogee bracket clock - wouldn't want to do that without asking!
 
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