mixing shellac

M

macchips4

Well-known member
A basic shellac question.
In the past When I was to use shellac on something I would put about an inch of flakes in a jar and add alcohol, 3/4 full no matter what the size of the container.  I always wound up with a "clear jelly" looking layer at the bottom of the container no matter how much stirring or shaking.I wind up pouring off the top layer into a container and disposing of the remaining "Jelly"  In use, I would just keep adding coats 4,6,9 what ever the task needed, wether it was a wash, sealer coat or a finish in itself.
    I had viewed Glen Huey,s DVD on "Finishes that pop" and noticed that the shellac in his container did not have that problem.
Now here is my question: Am I adding to little solvent?, not dissolving all the flakes? the shellac mixture is very thin, no where near as thick as a store bought varnish.
    Could the flakes be to old? they are Belhens super blond and purchased about 5-6 years ago. I thought flakes had no shelf life.
I have not had any problems with drying or hardness of the final finish etc. just wondering if I'm wasting the flakes by not adding more alcohol. (it seems very thin as it is)
Thanks for any comments.
Joe
 
My experience is that all the flacks dissolve into a syrup that I pour off and add more alcohol to thin. Anything that has not dissolved initially I add more alcohol to. The only exception is seed lac which leaves a residue.
 
I use dark garnett shellac and it takes 24-48 hours to completely dissolve and I must stir it regularilly.  After 48 hours there is still a little jelly matter on the bottom of the jar.  Waiting another day or two dissolves it 100%.  Shaking does not stir up the thick jelly.  Perhaps you just need to allow more time for it to dissolve with constant stirring.

Thick flakes of shellac take longer to dissolve.  I use a coffee grinder to turn my flakes in a fine powder.  This speeds up the dissolving but it still takes 2-3 days.

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 
    The last batch I mixed was 2 icetea scoops (approx 2oz each) to 16-18 oz of alcohol. I stir it about 3x a day,.its been 3 days and I would guess that the "jelly" on the bottom of the jar is 1/2 inch deep. (such scientific procedures). I'll wait to the weekend then pour off the top clear finish and throw away the jelly.
    Is there a shelf life on flakes? They are always kept dry and in their container. They are loose and not "clumped up".
I use the alcohol from one of the home centers. Not any special 2000 proof stuff. I have some more mixed about a month ago and it also is not 100% dissolved.  Maybe I'm just being crazy!!!
Joe
 
I use dry orange shellac flakes (1 lb)and mix in a gallon container(an old glass cider bottle). So 1 to 1 mix.  I have never experienced a jelly substance in my container. Lots of trash though, bugs parts and hair (I wonder about the hair). What type of alcohol are you using? Maybe it's the old glass cider bottle. Old being from the 70's. I have been told that Garnet works well to color walnut although I have not tried it myself. I do have some and might try it tomorrow(or maybe not).  
 
Joe- The only shellac I've had  trouble totally disslving is seedlac, and it does have a lot of junk in it. I'd switch shellac. Cue Don Williams......................Al
 
Stirring is the key to dissolving shellac.  It used to take me 2 days or so with frequent stirring to get the flakes to dissolve. 

Then, I went on Ebay and bought a chemistry type magnetic lab stirrer.  I can now dissolve an 8 to 16 oz batch at 1.5 lb cut in two to three hours.  (Love them toys.)

Cheers,
David
 
Al Breed gave a lecture to my local club, and I recall he said he used garnet on mahongany with no stain.  Of course I only recalled the mahogany part of his comment after I used it on walnut. I didn't like it on the walnut -too much of a red tint.  I stripped it off and used orange - nice and warm.

Don Williams suggested using an old coffee grinder to chop the flakes into tiny pieces which is how I do it now.  Disolves much faster, but you still need to shake it frequently.  I was in the same boat thinking something was wrong with the flakes/powder until I realized the alcohol was probably saturated , so I added more and it disolved. With flakes I would generally pour enough alcohol to cover the flakes, and add more as required.  With the powder you need to go about six times the height of the shellac with alcohol, since it is denser packed than the flakes.

I usually decant from the saturated mixture and add alcohol to get the thickness I want to work with.  Thinner as the finish builds up to keep the brush from dragging.

Tom
 
Thanks for all the replies!
      I'm going to try to pour off the finish and add more alcohol to the "jelly". It's just that I feel it is going to be very thin.
      Maybe I'll try to get some new shellac, solvent, (maybe some of that new Brooklyn stuff that Joel sells) and try to be more accurate in the proportions. (allitle of this , a pinch of that, alittle more, give a shake- that looks right Ha Ha)
Thanks again
Joe
 
Joe- Don W mentioned Sunnyside brand alcohol as being pretty good for shellac at his talk at the SAPFM midyear meeting.-Al
 
Machips,  I used to have the same problem as you.  It would eventually dissolve but would take forever.  I use the flakes and don't grind them in a coffee grinder.  

My solution was to warm the mixture in a double boiler . You warm a pan of water on a hot plate and put the jar of shellac in the warm water.  Be careful with putting the shellac near a heat source. Shut off the heat before putting the jar in the h2o to be totally safe.  It melts the jelly very quickly.  Then you can thin as needed.  Also stirring often is key as everyone said.

If you are throwing out the jelly you are just throwing out the shellac. 
 
Joe,

Several years ago I experienced the same problem as you with some Behlen super blonde flakes that were maybe 5 - 6 years old.  When they were new, I never had any trouble getting them to dissolve.  I also tried grinding them up in a spice grinder (to a powder), but they still wouldn't dissolve.  All I had was a thick, gluey mess in the bottom of the container.  It made me sick to throw them away, but that's what I did.  I'm pretty sure I remember asking Don Williams at a finishing workshop (at MESDA?) about this, and he said that the more refined (i.e. lighter) types of shellac had a limited shelf life, and that they would indeed degrade into an unusable state over time.  Somewhere I heard that keeping the flakes in the freezer would prolong their shelf life, so that's what I have been doing ever since.

Bob Seibels
 
I must admit to being less of a purist as I purchase my shellac already dissolved. I buy the smallest cans for freshness and keep on hand to cut it.

The thing that amazes me is that , unlike many traditional supplies that seem harder and harder to find, shellac seems to still be widely available in variuous types and colors. I am not aware of what base of purchasers create a demand that keeps the supply pipeline so well filled as shellac always seemed like a niche product to me. My first contact with it was its use for wood foundary patterns,  I have always been aware of it being used by furniture builders, and I do know it can be used to seal room surfaces to keep old colors from bleeding through when refinishing, but they do not seem like large markets.


Karl
 
An article by Jeff Jewitt addressing in part the issue of gel or jelly can be found at www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com.  Click the "Articles" link and then ""Shellac - A Traditional Finish Still Yields Superb Results."  It reads in part:

"Dry shellac flakes store indefinitely under proper conditions, but contrary to what you may hear, it won't  store forever. Given enough time, especially under hot, wet conditions, dry shellac reacts with itself to form polymers that are insoluble in alcohol. Shellacs that have been dewaxed are more prone to this. You can  extend the usable life of dry shellac flakes by storing them after purchase in a cool, dry area -- a refrigerator is best. A test for suspected old shellac is easy -- simply dissolve the flakes in alcohol. Most shellacs should be totally dissolved within three days. If you see a gelatinous mass after this time,  the shellac is past its usable life and should be discarded (don't confuse natural wax with this). . . ."

The entire article is very informative.
 
I wouldn't necessarily discard the shellac that went into solution. If it dries quickly and sands normally leaving a fine powder and not gumming the paper it's OK to use.

Howard Steier
 
I use orange flakes I get from Lee Valley Tools.  It dissolves within two hours, completely.

If I let it sit for a few days, a layer of 'jelly' with a whitish colour appears at the bottom of the jar.  I was always under the impression that this is the wax which is present in shellac.

I sometimes decant the top part, but usually just go ahead and use the stuff and I've never had a problem sanding it or had a problem with the finish sticking to the wood.

Herman
 
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