Glue for door

Tom M

Tom M

Well-known member
My neighbor has a "camp" in the Adirondaks.  He asked me to make him a new screen door to match an existing one.  I've used white pine, and am ready to glue it up.  I was planning on using a water resitant glue such as Titebond II, but now am wondering if hide glue wouldn't be fine.

All of the tenons on the door have 1 3/4" long tenons.  The door will be painted, and it is well protected; being that it is on a covered porch.  He says it doesn't get wet, and the screen door it will replace was probably 100 years old.  Now I'm wondering if I should just use hide glue - I don't want to have to go to the store. I assume that's what would have been used on the original.  Any thoughts?

On another note, he is going to pay me for the door, but I've never charged him or anyone before for "favors".  However spending a full day making a door goes well beyond a "favor".  I was thinking $20/hour would be reasonable, since it does get me in my shop.  I figure all totaled I'll have 8 hours into it including buying the wood.  The pine cost $75, so this would make the proce $235.  That sort of freaks me out - for a screen door.  When I told him He could just pay me his hourly rate (He's a consultant Metalurgist), he just laughed.

This pricing issues is probably more of a concern for the non-professionals like myself who frequently have people asking them for favors.  I had a person at work see my upholstered back stool recently and she said she loved it and would like one - "What would it cost?"  I told her I would have to charge at least $2000 unupholstered.  She almost gagged and then said she was figuring $200!

Any suggestions on pricing?



 
Tom M said:
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Any suggestions on pricing?
Click to expand...

Yes, be sure and do it. Anyone who laughs when you quote a reasonable price doesn't want to pay you anything, much less something reasonable. Make sure you get a deposit of at least half before even starting. I'd also go for a signed contract.

Pam
 
Tom;

Using Hyde glue should be fine. The door is protected as you said and as long as you stand behind your work you should have no problems.

I am assuming that this is a very good quality door that you are building. If you were to check out the price at home centers and compare the quality of work between yours and theirs you should feel comfortable asking the price you are.

This is basically a custom built door and a lot of your time is in it.

Stand by you decision!
 
 
Since the tennons are long enough peg them as well. If the door lasted 100 years it must be well protected, so the hide glue would probably be fine.

As far as payment, I'd ask for the use of the cabin for the weekend. Your son would love it, and you'd probably end up with the better end of the deal.

But If he wants to give you cash, carge what it's worth. Never short change yourself or you'll end up building lots of $200 chairs.
 
Tom,

To be safe I would use the Titebond glue.  It's not a piece of furniture.  When I was an apprentice the boss told me, "make the job so it does not come back for repairs."  It's a good rule to follow.

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 
Tom
Stand by your price, go Price a good screen Door there not cheap!! that’s not installed. I would use Titebond II for this it’s not a Period Furniture, but with the well protected door Hide glue would be ok.
For the Wood I like yellow pine at my Cabin it’s lasted from 1932 at 4300Ft just fine. Price out VG fir, and other woods pros and cons for each. I like VG fir most but with no paint. You could give a price to other folks you my like doing this work for your tool found. I have been getting people asking me to build this and that, My work is more  myself , But I’m ready to start doing work for others now in my life.
 
Tom,
I would suggest using drawbored tenons. That way the joint will hold tight long after any glue might fail. I would not hesitate using hide glue, the paint will keep any moisture from getting in the joints. And, remind your friend to paint the top and bottom ends, often they get forgotten and thats where any trouble will start.

John
 
Thanks for all your feedback.  So I think I'll use the hide glue since I already have it.  I was thinking about drawboring my pegs (3/8" oak).  I've never done this, so would like to move the topic to drawboring...

My tenons are 3/8" think centered in 7/8" white pine.  I understand for draw boring you drill the hole in the stile without the tenon assembled, then assemble and mark the center on the tenon.  The tenon then gets drilled by offseting from the center point.  Now some questions:

1) Offset the hole in the tenon 1/64? 1/32?
2) If I have 1/4" wood before my mortise, do I run the risk of deforming the mortise hole as opposed to the tenon hole.  In other words should my tenon have been thinner and my mortise wall thicker?
3) Is oak OK to use for the peg, or would I want to use a softer wood.
4) Should I use smaller pegs (1/4")?

Assuming it is cared for, I would expect this door will last at least 100 years.  I like the suggestion about being sure he paints the top and bottom.

Thanks again for the responses.


Tom
 
Hi Tom

I've done draw boring. I have used 1/4 dowels. I drill a hole with a brad point bit that is 7/32" diameter assuring that the dowel will completely fill the hole. Have a shim in the mortise and a backer behind the door so there is no blowout when drilling. Then I assemble and clamp the joint and tap the brad point bit to mark the mortise, and then drill 1/32 closer to the shoulder.  I round or taper the very end of the dowel so it will start easily.
In your case, I'd be concerned about the soft pine. I believe you could damage the mortise hole. I'd try a practice M&T joint first. I've used this technique to connect the sides to the legs of three cherry lowboys (no glue in order to prevent cross grain stress and cracking of the side.) . It went off witout a hitch.
I credit Dennis Bork who helped me with this on-line.
By the way, nice chairs. I tried to e-mail you but my address for you didn't work. Do you have a new address?

Howard Steier
[email protected]

Howard Steier
 
Hello Tom,
You didn't say how wide your tennon's are, but I imagine they are 2" to 4+" wide on a door. On a piece of furniture 1/4" pegs are common as they are sized to the width of the tennon. For a large door, 3/8" to 1/2" pegs would be correct and look to scale. Because pine will compress more easily than a hardwood the offset should be more as the wood will just compress instead of pulling the joint tight if not enough. I believe 1/16" or 3/32" would give enough pull without breaking anything. Stay at least 3/4" away from the end of the tennon when drilling the holes to prevent blowing the end out. I don't believe you can harm the inside of the mortise. Your liquid hide glue will lube the pegs as you drive them in. The pegs should work well, look great and impress you friend with the extra quality.
 
I took the advice to do a test-run on drawboring.  Here is what I found out:

My tenons are 1 3/4" long, so I marked the peg location 1" from the shoulder.  My 3/8" oak dowel measured  pretty close to 3/8". I filled the mortise with a plug, and drilled with a 3/8" brad.  I then marked the center with a transfer punch - the 3/8" drill actually drilled 1/32 larger. I offset the hole in then tenon 1/16".  When I drove the oak peg in it came through at an angle. Since the peg was smaller than the hole, it looked sloppy, but was pretty tight.  I disassembled the joint and saw that the tenon hole stayed fairly round, but the entrance side of the mortise deformed quite a bit.

On my second trail, I was fortunate to find an 11/32 brad (don't asked how or why I have an 11/32 brad because I didn't know it till I started rumaging through my bits).  This drill gave an 11/32" hole (based on the transfer punch which fit it).  I offset the hole in the tenon 1/32".  This worked great.  The peg ended up angled at about 3°.

The oak peg was compressed and burnished.  I think for the door I'll use a softer wood - maybe walnut or poplar.  And after thinking through the "physics", I will probably center the peg 3/4" from the shoulder.  I went 1" because I was concerned about the walls of the mortise being weaken.  But now I realize the walls are supported by the shoulder of the tenon. Whereas the end of the tenon isn't supported due to the small clearance to the bottom of the mortise.

I also found out it is important to support the exit side of the peg. Since the peg ends up at a slight angle, you'll tear out the wood even with a nice chamfer on the end.

Of course I won't consider this trial run as "billable hours". I've always wanted to try drawboring after seeing it in the Woodwright Shop years ago!  Thanks again.

Tom
 
Tom,
One more thing. Don't just chamfer the end of the peg. Sharpen it to a point starting about 3/4" from the end. That way it will gradually enter and won't splinter or blow out the exit hole. Trim flush after the glue dries.

John
 
Tom -

You mentioned using a "softer" wood like Walnut or Poplar "for the door".  I assume you mean for the drawbore pegs in the door, not the door itself.  Your first post mentioned building the door out of white pine, which is softer than anything easily obtainable other than a tropical import, like balsa wood.

In general, unless it's required as an authentic replacement, I would not recommend building any hard-use, structural piece like a building door out of white pine, as it is simply too weak to stand up over time.  One example of a weak point would be the hinge screws - they will likely pull out of white pine after just a few years.  The panels in a frame-and-panel door, of course, can be white pine as they don't have the same structural stresses placed on them as frame does.

As for the drawbore pins, Walnut isn't soft when compared to North American hardwoods.  Poplar, on the other hand, is indeed soft when compared to walnut, oak, maple, and cherry.  There is nothing wrong with making your drawbore pins out of the same pine that you made the door out of.  It is highly unlikely that the pin will be sheared across the long grain - the tenon would likely split out first.  Using pine dowels for the drawbore pins would have the advantage that they would likely do less damage to the wood surrounding the holes than would oak over a period of time.

FWIW - David
 
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