Flattening veneer

H

HSteier

Well-known member
I have used propietary flattening solution to flatten burl and crotch veneer before glue-up with reasonable success.  Recently I watched Darryl Keil's video on veneering and he recommnded a home brew for flattening which contained, amongst other things, PVA glue. He claimed that the glue "sized" the veneer and helped keep it flat longer.
My question is has anybody used this technique? Does the glue in the flattening agent seal the grain and interfere with subsequent staining or finishing? Is proprietary flattening solution adequate as long as you keep the flattened veneer pressed and use it within a few days after flattening?  Is any brand of flattening solution superior?

Thanks

Howard Steier
 
Howard,
I use Darryl Keil's formula for making a flatenning solution and have had no problems with either staining or finishing. The solution is very thin so after scrapping or sanding the veneer surface the glue will be removed.

Ed Stuckey
 
A drug store will have small quantities of glycerine. If you need buckets of the stuff www.cqconcepts.com will have it.
 
I used Dary's method too.  I got my glycerin at Walgreens.  It was in the laxative area I think. 

Tony
 
Howard, I use the same method today as when I was an apprentice, at T & H Ltd?
2, Heavy flat level surfaces, hot water and damp cloths.
Each veneer was brushed with hot water first, One damp cloth between each leaf?  One top & bottom and then sandwiched between the 2 flat surfaces?  (I used 2 pieces of marble from old dressing tables) leave over night to soak, then when ply-able and flat, remove the cloths, laid the veneers in the open to dry, then keep between the 2 marble tops, ready for any job.

                                                        Joseph hemingway
 
I agree with Joseph.    I was taught as an apprentice to dampen the veneer and sandwich it between layers of newsprint and apply pressure.  I made a small press using threaded rods, plywood and some solid wood to keep  veneer. It has kept for years.  Glycerin helps the veneer absorb the water but you still can't leave the veneer open for very long before it starts to move again. 
 
A further Note: Paper was the material used at T& H, Ltd, for years. But when damp left its print on the wood,staining it. To stop this happening? I had the gumption; to replace paper with washed cotton sheeting, found in the polisher’s ragbag? For this left the veneers easlyly, unlike paper? So scraping up! after Veneering! Was so much quicker. And the risk of scraping through the veneer was now minimal.

                                        Joseph Hemingway
                                          Sharing the tricks of the trade
 
Joseph makes a nice point. Whatever method you use to flatten the veneer you need a material in the press to absorb moisture and not affect the veneer. To this end I have found builders felt or rosin paper very effective. It's cheap, thick, absorbent and comes in three foot widths. It's probably twice as thick as brown paper and much more absorbent. My usual method is to use a commercial veneer softener to make the veneer pliable, join the veneer, re-wet with the softener and sandwich the result between to sheets of MDF with a piece of felt on one or both sides. The result can be stored in a rack until ready for use and come out as flat and even as you would like.
 
I just remembered one point. I once put a bunch of  inlays of sheraton fans in walnut burl with all the veneer tape on it into a press with veneer softener to supposedly get everything  flat. Nice idea maybe but the softener had this weird effect on the tape adhesive which penetrated the whole thing. I couldn't possibly get rid of the marks and had to restart the whole project. Flatten, do the marquetry, tape then glue up. Don't do the marquetry, tape, then apply a veneer softener and clamp to flatten. A disaster.
 
Joseph makes a nice point.
Wow?  Fran. Thank you.
  But seriously we are missing a point here?  Are we following the historical way using anything other than plain water?
Fran mention’s builders felt, Rosin Paper? It may be twice as thick as brown paper, but we in agreement paper will stick. Glycerine may make the timber absorbent? But no more than a soaking in hot water. Will glycerine in time stain the timber? Water will not?

                                                    Joseph Hemingway
                                                      Sharing the tricks of the trade
 
Note: While I’m not against all new methods, that do not course extra work? I changed from using newspaper to cloth? Cloth will not stick while damp, or stain, and historically any holding devices do not show? 

                                                      Joseph Hemingway
                                                      Sharing the tricks of the trade

 
I used Kyle's formula with success.Used nylon screen between veneer then I put newspaper to absorb the moisture . All went into homemade press. The print did not bleed through.
 
hschappell said:
I used Kyle's formula with success.Used nylon screen between veneer then I put newspaper to absorb the moisture . All went into homemade press. The print did not bleed through.
Click to expand...
Yet another discovery? A nylon screed, thats great news this worked.
It must have been an open weave that let water pass? Great news.
Because the paper is there to keep it Damp (not absorb).
Conclusion:  water is the true soften agent.
Interesting
                                                Joseph Hemingway
                                                   
 
Thanks for all the comments
Did the nylon screen leave marks on the veneer? You mentioned you put the sandwich with the nylon screen in a press. Do you use much pressure when drying in the press? I would suspect that light pressure is needed to prevent marking with the screen.
I like the idea of using builders felt to dry the veneer. I assume it's available at Home Depot etc?

Howard Steier
 
Yes, you should be able to find it at HD. Felt paper is pink in color, sometimes brown. The black stuff is tar paper but if you ask one of the assistants for builders felt they might give you tar paper by mistake.
Fran
 
Howard,
This is the method I use.
1. 3/4" MDF caul.
2. 3 layers of newsprint.
3. 1 piece of fiberglass screen. (Home Depot or Lowes).
4. veneer with flattening solution applied to both sides.
5. 1 piece of fiberglass screen.
6. 3 layers of newsprint
7. Repeat process for the number of veneer sheets.
8. 3/4" MDF caul

I place the whole thing into a vacuum press. I changed the paper 3 times during the first 24 hrs. I then changed the paper twice in the next 24 hrs. The 3rd day I remove the fiberglass screening and also replace with fresh paper. Place back in the vacuum press for one more day. It should be dry by the end of the 3rd day. Remove all the paper and leave the veneer between the MDF  cauls with some heavy weights on the top. Leave it like this until ready to use.
The screening leaves very few marks, hardly visible.

Ed Stuckey
 
Howard.
The historical way.
1, piece heavy marble. Or! What ever, with a tighten device.
2, 1, newspaper.
3, cotton sheet.
4, Wet, curl veneer (hot water).
5, cotton sheet.
6, 1, newspaper.
7, piece of heavy marble.

I left this over night? Then split the contents, to dry in the open air, when air dry, placed the veneers back under the marble for another day, when fully dry then put back in stock ready for use.
This process leaves no marks, and cost no more than? Old newspaper, and plain water.
 
                                                            Joseph Hemingway

 
Thanks to all.
I ordered mahogany crotch veneer from Certainly Wood today.
I'm ready to flatten,

Howard Steier
 
I'm back.
None of the local drug stores have glycerine. Before I order a lifetime supply on-line, I wonder if anyone has experience with Pro-Glue veneer softener from Vac U Clamp. The ingredients list "glycerine, water alcohol and adhesive" the same as Darryl Keil's potion. Does this stuff work well and does the "adhesive" keep the veneer flat after it's out of the press?

Howard Steier
 
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