I recently build a table that is similar to the famous Goddard tea table with the wavy rails, using genuine mahogany. Everything went fine until I started to apply the dye stain in an oil base, using Jeff Jewitt's suggestion in Fine Woodworking. Then there was a significant variation in the darkness of the wood along the curved surface. I realized then that the curved surface exposed varying amounts of end grain, and that end grain was producing a darker color after the oil was applied. Did I leave out some critical step, or is this variation of darkness inevitable?
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finishing curved surfaces
- Thread starter steveb
- Start date
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
You could have possibly applied shellac before an oil stain (an oil stain which I am not fond of. I think it is pretty much a paint. Use a water base aniline dye before the shellac to bring out the actual grain unless you want to cover up something). With that said you really can't do much about end grain darkness. It probably won't be as bad when you apply the final finish though. And all stains lighten up with time. Please post a picture. Best of luck.
Steve-Why stain it? If you use good mahogany to begin with, your piece will look great after a little while oxidizing..Next time take care matching the wood and just oil and shellac it.
I haven't stained any of my tea tables, and over the long run this is better because the grain remains uncloudy and clearer, in my opinion. There are people ( Jeff Jewett, for example) who can successfully dye wood, but it is a tricky business and if you can possibly avoid it, do!
Also, don't assume that the piece has to match, color-wise, from par to part. Look at some of the Townsend and Godard pieces and you'll see color differences from leg to skirt and also in case parts- moldings, for example. Some of these parts may have been stained originally to match- we can't know at this point, but I think sometimes the color difference was acceptable. 18th century perfection was different from our ideas of perfection today.-Al
I haven't stained any of my tea tables, and over the long run this is better because the grain remains uncloudy and clearer, in my opinion. There are people ( Jeff Jewett, for example) who can successfully dye wood, but it is a tricky business and if you can possibly avoid it, do!
Also, don't assume that the piece has to match, color-wise, from par to part. Look at some of the Townsend and Godard pieces and you'll see color differences from leg to skirt and also in case parts- moldings, for example. Some of these parts may have been stained originally to match- we can't know at this point, but I think sometimes the color difference was acceptable. 18th century perfection was different from our ideas of perfection today.-Al
It is tricky to keep the color uniform on end grain. I rarely use oil based products directly on wood. I typically stain with water or alcohol dyes that dont leave the wood cloudy or un-clear. First make sure your wood is uniformly sanded. You can also sand your end grain sections to a higher grit. Raise the grain with water and lightly sand. When you apply the water stain you can flood the end grain with water first or dilute your final stain color a little so the end grain doesnt absorb as much. You can pull some of the color out with a damp rag. It is hard to avoid getting the end grain darker. I would reccomend trying to learn how to apply color/stain pieces. All of my clients want a custom color or something that fits in to their environment. I have never sold a piece or had a client ask for the piece to be left "just oiled and shellac" They would not be happy if I told them to just wait for it to oxidze....
I too have struggled over the years to produce uniform color with dyes and stains and have come to this conclusion; I can't. The only times that I have seen truly uniform color is on pieces that have been "glazed" which is essentially painting with a thin coat of paint or stain. Norm does this on all the cherry pieces he makes. Certainly if you're making a piece for a customer who wants something specific that's an option. Otherwise, I agree with Al Breed.
Even though you used an oil based stain you may be able to lighten it some with mineral spirits. Water based dyes can be lightened after application by rubbing with a wet rag.
Howard Steier
Even though you used an oil based stain you may be able to lighten it some with mineral spirits. Water based dyes can be lightened after application by rubbing with a wet rag.
Howard Steier
I think the pitfall that gets a lot of furniture makers is that after the staining and glazing the result doesn't look like wood anymore. What Norm does to cherry Kraft does to cheese, and the result is nothing like the original material. Wood has amazing color and texture, and I try to choose material that I like the look of, so I don't have to modify it much color-wise.
This is a personal style when it comes to furniture, so there's no right and wrong. Give your customers what they want.-Al
This is a personal style when it comes to furniture, so there's no right and wrong. Give your customers what they want.-Al
Steve,
Here is another slant on the problem.
I love the beauty of the form and the details of wood grain it reveals; they are what draw me to Period Furniture. On the other hand, I live in the real world with grandchildren and drink glasses, and so I have gone over to the dark side by adopting gel finishes for mahogany and cherry, and clear gel over water stained finishes for curly maple. The difference is that I am usually seeking to maximize the contrast with curly maple - the contrast is what is so strikingly beautiful , but to downplay it with the others.
The thing that works best for me for cherry and mahogany is to seal the entire piece in yellow shellac, fine sand and then "seal" the end grain with clear gel varnish before going back and coating the entire piece with stain gel.
Karl
Here is another slant on the problem.
I love the beauty of the form and the details of wood grain it reveals; they are what draw me to Period Furniture. On the other hand, I live in the real world with grandchildren and drink glasses, and so I have gone over to the dark side by adopting gel finishes for mahogany and cherry, and clear gel over water stained finishes for curly maple. The difference is that I am usually seeking to maximize the contrast with curly maple - the contrast is what is so strikingly beautiful , but to downplay it with the others.
The thing that works best for me for cherry and mahogany is to seal the entire piece in yellow shellac, fine sand and then "seal" the end grain with clear gel varnish before going back and coating the entire piece with stain gel.
Karl
Michael Armand
Active member
Steve
I agree with all the above comments but, it is possible to stain most if not all woods and get an even look with virtually no end grain or open pores darkening. Finishing is an art to itself and each piece is going to require a different series of steps to get to the final stage. Most clients do not want to wait for the piece to oxidize to get that great look of the old period antiques.
One way to stain with penetrating dye stains is to dilute the stain down with thinner (90% thinner and 10%Dye) depending on how dark you want the piece and (here I go) spray it on in thin coats. Apply progressive coats until you get close to the color you want. You can also mist coats to any lighter parts that you want to darken. After it dries flood the wood with a sealer especially the end grain and proceed with any additional steps such as filling the pores adding patina ect. You need to get the end grain filled up with sealer to stop any darkening of it. Spraying it on allows only a small amount of stain to penetrate the end grain and does little if no darkening. I have found that oil stains do not work well in eliminating end grain darkening unless they have little or no pigment in them. I know that spraying finishes is not the way it was originally done but sometimes you have to adapt to meet demands of these challenging times. Always do a sample board if you want to get an idea of what the stain will look like. Good luck!
Michael Armand
I agree with all the above comments but, it is possible to stain most if not all woods and get an even look with virtually no end grain or open pores darkening. Finishing is an art to itself and each piece is going to require a different series of steps to get to the final stage. Most clients do not want to wait for the piece to oxidize to get that great look of the old period antiques.
One way to stain with penetrating dye stains is to dilute the stain down with thinner (90% thinner and 10%Dye) depending on how dark you want the piece and (here I go) spray it on in thin coats. Apply progressive coats until you get close to the color you want. You can also mist coats to any lighter parts that you want to darken. After it dries flood the wood with a sealer especially the end grain and proceed with any additional steps such as filling the pores adding patina ect. You need to get the end grain filled up with sealer to stop any darkening of it. Spraying it on allows only a small amount of stain to penetrate the end grain and does little if no darkening. I have found that oil stains do not work well in eliminating end grain darkening unless they have little or no pigment in them. I know that spraying finishes is not the way it was originally done but sometimes you have to adapt to meet demands of these challenging times. Always do a sample board if you want to get an idea of what the stain will look like. Good luck!
Michael Armand
mikemcgrail
Well-known member
I think time/age/oxidation results in a general even warm tone that folks refer to as a patina. I think it becomes extraordinarily difficult to achieve this effect with stains/finishes/varnishes. I am certain some folks can do it; I have on many occasions removed a finsh entirely from a new piece when I atttempted to color it. I have been happier since I made the change to just using shellac, and I very much like the color it imparts to mahogany and walnut. Usually a great deal of time/effort has gone into matching the lumber itself, and this effort is wasted if the finish is not just right. Shellac is usually the way I end up happiest with a piece.
And the beauty of shellac is that it comes in a lot of colors that can help balance the desired effect. Shellac isn't terribly difficult to work with, though it is best to apply it with Taclon brushes. Some of these can be expensive but you can get a lot done with the smaller sizes that come in multi packs. The value of Pottasium Dichromate as an oxidizer has been frequently discussed on the forum. I always use this on mahogany. The great thing about this method is that it allows you a bit of elbow room as the penetration into end grain is slight. A little fine steel wool used judiciously before applying shellac can gain an appreciable difference in color. When you steel wool the treated areas you create a lot of fine dust and P Dc is toxic so take the necessary precautions.
F
F
Thanks for the help.
I build another test rail with a curved front, and this time first applied a thin coat of shellac. It worked. There was no longer any noticeable variation in darkness, even if I then applied some clear oil.
As for mixing some dye with oil, to overall darken the piece, there are clear differences of preference among the comments. I had first tried a flat test piece, about a foot square, and I thought it looked attractive. But when I applied this oil/dye to the entire table, I didn’t like the overall appearance. So I am now on the side of minimal or no dye for mahogany, and waiting for the sun and oxygen to do the job.
I have decided to toss the table away and start over. The next one should be built a lot faster. Then a thin coat of shellac first, and maybe some clear oil, or maybe just more shellac.
I build another test rail with a curved front, and this time first applied a thin coat of shellac. It worked. There was no longer any noticeable variation in darkness, even if I then applied some clear oil.
As for mixing some dye with oil, to overall darken the piece, there are clear differences of preference among the comments. I had first tried a flat test piece, about a foot square, and I thought it looked attractive. But when I applied this oil/dye to the entire table, I didn’t like the overall appearance. So I am now on the side of minimal or no dye for mahogany, and waiting for the sun and oxygen to do the job.
I have decided to toss the table away and start over. The next one should be built a lot faster. Then a thin coat of shellac first, and maybe some clear oil, or maybe just more shellac.
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Steve, I like that attitude. I think next time I am not happy with my finish I will just throw it away and start over also. Say, where did you toss it, just for reference?
Finishing can be frustrating. I have always looked at it as an entirely different trade/skill set. It takes practice and a thorough understanding of how dyes and other finish materials work. It is not just opening a can of color and putting it on, although I wish it was. I would suggest doing sample boards and alot of them before any finish goes on your piece. Any look/color that is on an old period piece, can be achieved. Yes, the wood plays a big part in that but letting it oxidize, to me, is really silly.
Dont throw your work out. So you dont like the overall appearance- why? is it to red? green? orange? you can top coat(tint shellac) to alter the color. Green will turn red to brown and vice versa, yellow and red make orange, add blue to get to brown.
Dont throw your work out. So you dont like the overall appearance- why? is it to red? green? orange? you can top coat(tint shellac) to alter the color. Green will turn red to brown and vice versa, yellow and red make orange, add blue to get to brown.
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
steveb said:As for mixing some dye with oil, to overall darken the piece, there are clear differences of preference among the comments. I had first tried a flat test piece, about a foot square, and I thought it looked attractive. But when I applied this oil/dye to the entire table, I didn’t like the overall appearance. So I am now on the side of minimal or no dye for mahogany, and waiting for the sun and oxygen to do the job.
I have decided to toss the table away and start over. The next one should be built a lot faster. Then a thin coat of shellac first, and maybe some clear oil, or maybe just more shellac.
Steve - If you wish to color the appearance of the piece but still retain the clarity of the finish and not obscure the wood grain, there is a way to do it that will not result in end-grain darkening. And it's pretty easy to do without spray equipment - you simply color the 3rd or 4th coat of shellac with a couple of drops of aniline dye in the color you prefer. I use Transfast, but there may be other brands out there that will work just as well.
The key to making this work convincingly is to get the work thoroughly sealed with a blond/super-blond shellac. In my shop, that typically means about 3 light coats of a 1.5 lb cut brushed on with a Taklon artist's brush. It's important to let this set for at least 24 hours before coating with the tinted shellac. While the initial coats will harden to the touch in as little as 1 minute, the shellac continues to harden over a number of hours, and letting the project set overnight will greatly minimize the tendency of the tinted shellac coat to re-dissolve the initial coats.
The same applies for the tinted coat of shellac - allowing it to harden overnight at at least 60 degrees F will minimize re-dissolution of the tinted surface with the final sealing coats of shellac. If you choose to use laquer or a alkyd varnish as the final sealing coat, re-dissolution of the tinted shellac will not be an issue. However, I prefer both the sheen and surface feel of brushed shellac, so that's what I use as the final coats.
If you want to darken the mahogany through oxidation, I would recommend not finishing the surface at all. You can rapidly accelerate the darkening of mahogany by placing it in direct sunlight (not through a window - window glass significantly filters out the wavelengths of UV that you need for the darkening effect). Generally speaking, shellac, alkyd varnish and especially phenolic varnish will inhibit the effects of UV light on the darkening of the wood.
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