color guides for reproduction period furniture

C

chairmakerjim

Member
Hi,

I bought several fancy chairs recently at an antique shop and two are Queen Anne and two are Chippendale style ladder backs.  The ladder back chairs are stained a dark mahogany and I should have no trouble refinishing them.  However, the two Queen Anne chairs have more of a honey maple look which I don't like.  So here is my question: where could I look for a color guide to finishing /refinishing reproduction pieces.  I prefer the red brown tints to stains/dyes over the honey maple ones, but I'd like to have some reference.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Jim,

I am not sure that I know with certainty what you mean by a color guide, and I am not sure if one existed it would be widely accepted. for lots of good reasons including how the color of furniture changes with age, and how widely colors probably varied even when the pieces were new.

However, if you are seeking authoratative information on how authentic pieces now - or relatively recently - appear consider the Sack 10 Volume series as it is filled with color photographs - subject to all of the limitations of taking and printing color photos.




Karl 
 
Thanks Karl.  I was thinking of a publication to guide me in finishing period pieces and your suggestion is something that I'll check out.  I have some publications with color photos of period and reproduction pieces, and looking at the Sack Volume 10 will be helpful I'm sure. 

In Ron Clarkson's book, Making Classic Chairs, he mixed three water based dyes, brown mahogany, dark red mahogany, and medium walnut, to achieve the desired red brown color he wanted on Honduras mahogany.  I didn't even mention glazes and all the enhancements they offer as well. Since I don't know yet what that ideal look is in terms of color, I was hoping for some guidelines.  For the very reasons you mention, natural wood color, aging of the wood, aging of the finishes, etc., this is not an easy thing to aim for accomplishing. 

Food for thought,

Jim
 
Jim, since you are not getting a lot of response to your question, I will way in. Be aware I am in no way an expert in period finishes. I don't think we actually know what period pieces looked like when they were new.
1. Very few if any pieces exist in their original unadulterated finish. Even in museums, if nothing else they've been waxed hundreds of times.
2. The finishing materials we use were not available in the period.
3. Much of what they used is not easily available today.
4. The process for bleaching shellac wasn't invented until the1830s so any that was available would have been seed-lac and dark in color.
5. The most common finish in the colonies was probably raw linseed oil and wax or some kind of varnish made with an available resin like rosin.
I think all you can do is find a look you like and and find a way to duplicate it with modern material.
I hope some of the more knowledgeable folks will way in, finishing is one of the topics that interests me most.
 
Hi Jim
  I think what your asking for is a little more complex than you can imagine.When I first started out, I used pictures from magazine like Antiques magazine etc. I would not use books because 9 times out of 10 the person that wrote the book on building chairs or cabinets hasn't a clue on how to finish it. Yeah, it sounds harsh but finishing is not something you can get out of a book.If your going to finish the bird house or toy box you built with the kids that is one thing but if your aim is to duplicate or copy period antiques you need to go to school or find someone to teach you.DCTC in Rosemount Mn. is a good place to start. I think Don Williams still teaches there.
I sometimes use up to a dozen stains,glazing, toning,shading, distressing, ware has to be put in the right place,etc.One needs to know when water base stain will work and why alcohol based may be better.Why shellac makes a good base and not a good top coat over other finishes. And why some things used in the past may not be the best choice today.I have been told many times that learning to finish[reproductions] is more of a task than learning to build them. Some 30 + years later, I find myself still in the learning stage.
 The antique market is funny, some people like things original, some don't care so much.But with reproductions, people expect to see something that they remember in there past,or that looks like a real antique.If you miss the look ,you lower the percentage of people that would buy an  antique reproduction.
Questions are a good start.   Good luck    Randy
 
1.) Joel used to publish on the inside covers of his TFWW catalog a good selection of colors from Lockwood dyes.  He also has these on his website if you don't have one of his catalogs.  You can't truly trust the color on either source.  I start a proposition like this by acquiring four dye packets of different colors that bracket the range I'm after.  Either pure or mixed, these are usually enough to nail the color.  A case of small jam jars, cheaply had at Walmart is useful here.

2.) Presumably you will remove entirely the old finish and coloring.  Particularly with maple, you must prepare a goodly number of samples that are prepared exactly the way you prepped the chair.

3.) If you remove the finish, then you will be removing much of the patina/aged look of the chair.  Do you intend to try to put some of that back?

4.) Application method may restrict color options.  For example, the Lockwood dye series comes in three base chemistries: oil, alcohol, and water.  Each base has a different color range available, with some overlap.  You might be determined to oil the piece, and yet find that the perfect color exists premixed only in the water series.  You can still achieve the color you want in the oil dyes, but by mixing.
 
I really have to agree 100% with what Randy had to say.  Could not have been said much better.  There really is no "guide" to correct color.  Everyone perceives it differently.  Different likes/dislikes.  It should be approached as a seperate trade in and of itself.  For what it is worth- I dont think I have ever used a color-water dye, alcohol, glaze, pigmented stain,etc directly out of the jar or mixed to whatever the color sample says to or totally by itself without another color.  The color is often applied in many light coats, developing a base under tone color, building it with mulitiple layers of color, seal coats, glazes etc.  I have also never had a paying comission piece that was not colored.  I have also had more than one client that has said-" so and so told me they would just oil it and let it age", or "you have to pick color A B or C and I cant match it".... But in regards to your chairs and the refinishing- might want to explore the pigmented stains and or alcohol dyes if you need to add color. 

Pete
www.cherrybrookwoodworks.com
 
 
Late as usual, sorry. As others have said, trying to gain colouring experience from books is fraught with pitfalls and potential temper tantrums. As millcrek said, seed lac was available in the eighteenth-century and was used extensively as a varnish. For lighter woods such as satinwood, pale oil-based varnishes were used. Shellac is very easy to use and will do fine for the majority of work until you get some mileage up and gain confidence with oils and oil-based varnishes. Good artists supply stores normally stock all the resins etc. and many of the vegetable colours that were in use centuries ago.

I don't keep any blends of stains after finishing a piece of furniture. The reasons are many ? for instance, no two pieces of furniture are the same and they normally warrant different finishing schedules; even if making several pieces from the same tree, no sane person wants their antiques looking identical like cheap suites of furniture from chain stores. Even if someone tells you they used xyz stain on their walnut chair, that's no reason for you to use it on a walnut chair. They might have employed all manner of other fillers, glazes and waxes to attain their look which, if you don't copy precisely, will result in a totally different look.

The best advice I can give you is to spend as much time around genuine antiques (not other peoples' reproductions ? you'll only pick up their bad habits and poor techniques... present company excepted!) and examine them in the minutest detail. Imagine how every blemish was caused and how you might replicate it. Look at where dirt builds up and again, what causes it to build up in some areas and be absent from others. Look at sharp arrises and how the transition from still-sharp where they intersect other components to being delicately rounded to being severely worn down. Imagine all the possibilities and solutions and then practice, practice, practice!
 
I appreciate all the responses you have given me here.  As I develop more appreciation for period pieces, I do believe that I'll pay even more attention to finishes and how they have aged on the originals.  

I also think that my approach to finishing might include better record keeping too from project to project so that I have a starting point when I measure out dyes to be combined.  While each project will have its variations due to wood selections and my preferences or the customers preferences; it makes sense to me that samples of stained material and meticulous notes on what finishing materials were used in combination couldn't hurt. I am wondering if taking pictures in progress on the application of finishes, stains, dyes, glazes, aging materials would also be good ways of developing confidence in applying finishes.

All that said, you have all helped me to recognize to a higher degree just how careful one must be to achieve the most optimum look. Since so much of what we are striving to do is based on experience, I think I'll have some fun with these 20th century versions.

Jim
 
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