Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Sliding dovetails are also needed for leg to post joinery for table construction. http://www.sapfm.org/forum/index.php?board=20.0
Sliding dovetails
- Thread starter Jeff L Headley
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Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Pedestal dining table posts support an incredible amount of weight at the intersection between the legs and the post. You do not want a "Dog Gone It". In this situation a tapered dovetail might come back to bite you in the butt. I would recommend a straight (parallel shouldered) dovetail up into the post. I also recommend spiders.
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Peter Storey Pentz
Well-known member
Jeff,
I am partial to spiders, too. But I am not very fond of black widows. PSP
I am partial to spiders, too. But I am not very fond of black widows. PSP
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
The posts are from 24/4 (2- 12/4 glued up which no dovetailed joint intersects a post glue joint) turned down to 22/4. A Queen Anne post should be light.
I like spiders! They should be dark so they do not get seen. They also are like Jayne Mansfield's Wonderbra. They help support and separate.
I like spiders! They should be dark so they do not get seen. They also are like Jayne Mansfield's Wonderbra. They help support and separate.
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
If you want to be critical all sliding dovetails are tapered but in this situation they should be as parallel as possible. A perfect fit no matter what the situation is needed leaving room for glue. Surface to surface contact is required.
John Cashman
Well-known member
I notice you cut the post as an octagon on the table saw. I assume this was to make the turning easier?
I like to make my posts first as hexagons. That makes it easier to make the female part of the sliding dovetail on a router table. Just cut every other side on the flat. You can't do this with an octagon.
I like to make my posts first as hexagons. That makes it easier to make the female part of the sliding dovetail on a router table. Just cut every other side on the flat. You can't do this with an octagon.
Mo Yarborough
Well-known member
Ok guys, I thought you were supposed to make this by hand and mallet and chisel! That's why I joined this
group of specialists, to learn the ways of the Old Masters! HaHa just kidding!
group of specialists, to learn the ways of the Old Masters! HaHa just kidding!
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Mo, True!! as we read this from our devices. I do agree. But how were your "modern post 1820's" mallets and chisels made? Do you use modern lighting. We could spend hours on what in today's society denotes "Handmade". I think that it should come down to Period joinery and how it fits. I try to think that modern machinery are todays aprententises prepareing lumber. The only problem is that they do not get any smarter
John, I have repaired many pedestal tables. Period, modern, and in between. Our method works. I have angled shoulder which can not be made easily from a six sided post. Angled shoulders allow your tails to be set further apart. More meat between each dovetail with spiders added means hopefully in 150 years we will not be bothered by returned products.
John, I have repaired many pedestal tables. Period, modern, and in between. Our method works. I have angled shoulder which can not be made easily from a six sided post. Angled shoulders allow your tails to be set further apart. More meat between each dovetail with spiders added means hopefully in 150 years we will not be bothered by returned products.
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Jack Plane
Well-known member
I lay out dovetail sockets on the end of a column with a compass irrespective of the column's shape, though I usually plane the column octagonal simply for ease of holding it in the vise – http://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/image-galleries/making-a-reading-table-gallery/
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
97% is Geometry
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Mo Yarborough
Well-known member
Jeff, I love your work! The issue about the "handmade" joinery comes from a few discussions I have had with Executive Board Members regarding new membership. I asked the question regarding new members who made things using new technology, and the response was deep in the gray area. Seems like the methods that are wanted are in the true form of handmade. I really don't care one way or the other....I suspect that if electric machines were avalible in 1760, the Masters would have used them!
Mo
Mo
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Mo, I am a little confused by your new technology comment. I am building American period furniture today, not in the original period as are you. I am using the same joints as are you. Most hand cut but all hand fit!. I am not a hobbyist. I do use machines to speed up the process. Nothing is sacrificed by my clumsy machines. There are French designs for reciprocating saw blades in the early 1700's which had 5 blades working in unison for cutting logs. Would that not have been new technology. Nails! There is a great place to start with new technology. I respect your opinion. How do you acquire your lumber. No modern technology there?
I am in the business of reproducing American period furniture. We are a two man shop. I am glad that you have a clientele that will support your method of complete hand work. I am envious that you have the time to do everything by hand. I guess I must not have the right clientele. Most of my customers will not support a completely hand made piece. The table currently in discussion the lumber was sawn off of my clients property. I have had it drying in our shed for over 15 years. I did use an electric motor to run my 1914 Oliver lathe that we had rebuilt. With all that iron a treadle did not seem feasible. I did use a table saw to cut the corners off of each edge of the cherry posts. I did just turn the poplar sample without cutting the corners off with the table saw, I hope that counts. The top is hand planed then scraped with highly figured cherry. As an original member I did not realize that this forum was limited to one way of doing things. You have touched a nerve. Please do not say that any of my joinery is inferior because of the assistance of modern technology. This is a great discussion and I appreciate your opinion.
I am in the business of reproducing American period furniture. We are a two man shop. I am glad that you have a clientele that will support your method of complete hand work. I am envious that you have the time to do everything by hand. I guess I must not have the right clientele. Most of my customers will not support a completely hand made piece. The table currently in discussion the lumber was sawn off of my clients property. I have had it drying in our shed for over 15 years. I did use an electric motor to run my 1914 Oliver lathe that we had rebuilt. With all that iron a treadle did not seem feasible. I did use a table saw to cut the corners off of each edge of the cherry posts. I did just turn the poplar sample without cutting the corners off with the table saw, I hope that counts. The top is hand planed then scraped with highly figured cherry. As an original member I did not realize that this forum was limited to one way of doing things. You have touched a nerve. Please do not say that any of my joinery is inferior because of the assistance of modern technology. This is a great discussion and I appreciate your opinion.
Mo Yarborough
Well-known member
Jeff,
I apologize for causing an offense. I don't believe I referred to anyone's work as inferior. Yes, I am aware of water powered and other methods of "gang bandsaws" to cut logs. I don't recall saying that I used just hand tools myself. My point is based on a mis-conception. Why did I go to Williamsburg to sit for three days and watch 1700's methods of building Period Furniture, and not come away with the belief that what I saw is what SAPFM was all about. I went to a 2 year Community College Fine Woodworking program at the age of 63 and graduated. I was in a consistant struggle with my instructor, who used few hand tools and boxes of sandpaper to teach furniture building. It was not what I had expected, so I felt right at home in Williamsburg this past January, and loved being there. I do realize however, that I am not in a position of producing a quantity of product and what I make takes much more time.
What my clients receive is a product that often comes from wood that I hand split, but I do use a chain saw to get the tree on the ground and buck the log. I have pieces in my home that were produced in the 1700's, and joined with nails...the wood has never split. Would my clients accept nails? They would if I explained the way an original was built, but additionally I would suggest other ways..so that I am not the one making the final decision on a special order.
I would rather be your friend than someone you view with contempt. I am a new member, and asking alot of questions, and learning how other furniture makers approach work. I have been to a NC Chapter meeting, which is affiliated in a form to Old Salem, and the concensus of those I spoke with seem to focus on period tools as well as period furniture. So the mis-conception on my part is the definition of a Period Furniture Maker, as it relates to 18th Century Furniture.
Wood Working in America will be in Winston-Salem this September. I understand that SAPFM does a "Hand tool Olympics" at this event. Roy Underhill and Drew Langsner among others are speaking and likely will be promoting hand tools proficiency from log-to-product. So, as you said it is a great topic to discuss, and I probably should not have hijacked your topic by asking the question I did. I'd rather you forgive me than be offended by my question.
Mo
I apologize for causing an offense. I don't believe I referred to anyone's work as inferior. Yes, I am aware of water powered and other methods of "gang bandsaws" to cut logs. I don't recall saying that I used just hand tools myself. My point is based on a mis-conception. Why did I go to Williamsburg to sit for three days and watch 1700's methods of building Period Furniture, and not come away with the belief that what I saw is what SAPFM was all about. I went to a 2 year Community College Fine Woodworking program at the age of 63 and graduated. I was in a consistant struggle with my instructor, who used few hand tools and boxes of sandpaper to teach furniture building. It was not what I had expected, so I felt right at home in Williamsburg this past January, and loved being there. I do realize however, that I am not in a position of producing a quantity of product and what I make takes much more time.
What my clients receive is a product that often comes from wood that I hand split, but I do use a chain saw to get the tree on the ground and buck the log. I have pieces in my home that were produced in the 1700's, and joined with nails...the wood has never split. Would my clients accept nails? They would if I explained the way an original was built, but additionally I would suggest other ways..so that I am not the one making the final decision on a special order.
I would rather be your friend than someone you view with contempt. I am a new member, and asking alot of questions, and learning how other furniture makers approach work. I have been to a NC Chapter meeting, which is affiliated in a form to Old Salem, and the concensus of those I spoke with seem to focus on period tools as well as period furniture. So the mis-conception on my part is the definition of a Period Furniture Maker, as it relates to 18th Century Furniture.
Wood Working in America will be in Winston-Salem this September. I understand that SAPFM does a "Hand tool Olympics" at this event. Roy Underhill and Drew Langsner among others are speaking and likely will be promoting hand tools proficiency from log-to-product. So, as you said it is a great topic to discuss, and I probably should not have hijacked your topic by asking the question I did. I'd rather you forgive me than be offended by my question.
Mo
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Mo, No offense was taken.
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Mo, My comment on nails was only meant as technology. Dating pieces by their nails. Handmade, Machine made but hand headed and then all machine made. Iron and wood is a completely different discussion. I hope I have not discouraged you from posting in the future. I appreciate your insights.
Mo Yarborough
Well-known member
Jeff, no discouragement here. Too old to worry about such trivial things as sticking my foot in my mouth or chiming in when one lests expects it, unless however, what I think I say in lightheartedness is perceived otherwise possibly; at which point I do not hesitate to apologize. I do not profess to be an expert at anything. Always learning. Always wanting to make new friends.
I understand about the nails. I live in a house that was built in 1805, and has been modified several times. It is modest, and started out as Slave Quarters for a Low Country SC Planter's Summer Residence in Western NC. It was later modified, adding rooms to accomodate Livestock Drovers on the Buncombe Turnpike in 1824. There are hand wrought nails, cut nails, wire nails and hand planed Mantels, trim, doors, floors, walls and ceiling. All plane marks are visible. Doors and windows are hand jointed and pegged, no glue. Some family hand-me down furniture from the NC Backcountry (Rowan, Forsyth and Iredell Counties) is all pegged. No glue and tight, with no cracks. Some is nailed, usually on table tops and cabinet backs, and a couple of pie safes have the shelves nailed.
Studied all of Eric Sloan's books to date the different areas of the house, and some of the tools I have. Been at restoring the foundation, the interior, roof and grounds for about 15 years. Taking it slow. All the joists, upper and lower are whole logs, azed on one side to accomodate a flat surface for the floor and ceiling. Found a Confederate Soldier's coat button in my garden one day a few years back...it was from the SC 2nd Infantry Division called "the Flat Rock Guards". They were sent to Flat Rock,NC and the surrounding area to protect the SC Lowcountry Planters' summer homes just prior to the bombardment of Ft. Sumter in Charleston. Find lots of stuff in the yard.
Anyway, not a stranger to historical building methods..that's why I started building furniture, and joined SAPFM to learn all I could from some of the best American Period Furniture Makers in the country! I am learning from you, and I appreciate all the help I can get! Thanks for sharing your work!
I understand about the nails. I live in a house that was built in 1805, and has been modified several times. It is modest, and started out as Slave Quarters for a Low Country SC Planter's Summer Residence in Western NC. It was later modified, adding rooms to accomodate Livestock Drovers on the Buncombe Turnpike in 1824. There are hand wrought nails, cut nails, wire nails and hand planed Mantels, trim, doors, floors, walls and ceiling. All plane marks are visible. Doors and windows are hand jointed and pegged, no glue. Some family hand-me down furniture from the NC Backcountry (Rowan, Forsyth and Iredell Counties) is all pegged. No glue and tight, with no cracks. Some is nailed, usually on table tops and cabinet backs, and a couple of pie safes have the shelves nailed.
Studied all of Eric Sloan's books to date the different areas of the house, and some of the tools I have. Been at restoring the foundation, the interior, roof and grounds for about 15 years. Taking it slow. All the joists, upper and lower are whole logs, azed on one side to accomodate a flat surface for the floor and ceiling. Found a Confederate Soldier's coat button in my garden one day a few years back...it was from the SC 2nd Infantry Division called "the Flat Rock Guards". They were sent to Flat Rock,NC and the surrounding area to protect the SC Lowcountry Planters' summer homes just prior to the bombardment of Ft. Sumter in Charleston. Find lots of stuff in the yard.
Anyway, not a stranger to historical building methods..that's why I started building furniture, and joined SAPFM to learn all I could from some of the best American Period Furniture Makers in the country! I am learning from you, and I appreciate all the help I can get! Thanks for sharing your work!