Sharpening very small gouges
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MikeWenzloff
Well-known member
Hi again, Howard.
Are you using a small inner bevel on these small gouges/veniers? fwiw, I never did. I simply used shaped slipstones to rub flat to remove any sharpening burr.
My slipstones for this are hard stones. I used decididly non-early period diamond bench stones to shape the acute edges in order to hit the insides. Because the stones were pretty hard black stones, the shaping would last several sharpenings and hold up well if I was careful with them else the stone's edges would chip.
Sorry I am not better help.
Take care, Mike
Are you using a small inner bevel on these small gouges/veniers? fwiw, I never did. I simply used shaped slipstones to rub flat to remove any sharpening burr.
My slipstones for this are hard stones. I used decididly non-early period diamond bench stones to shape the acute edges in order to hit the insides. Because the stones were pretty hard black stones, the shaping would last several sharpenings and hold up well if I was careful with them else the stone's edges would chip.
Sorry I am not better help.
Take care, Mike
Adam Cherubini
Well-known member
I've wrapped sand paper around nails before. I've even saved some of these as tiny abrasive files. A little back bevel doesn't hurt these tools. In fact, it makes a little more room for the outer bevel and makes the tool cut a little better.
Adam
Adam
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
Howard - What sort of slipstones do you have? I use a set of 4000 grit and 8000 grit japanese waterstone slipstones to get into the inside corner of v-tools and with 2mm #9 and #11 gouges. There are 4 stones to a set, and a couple of them narrow to a point along one edge, so they can get into almost any tight space. Also, they're really easy to re-shape with some sandpaper and a flat surface, so you can custom fit them to your tools. Woodcraft sells them, and because they're synthetic, they're pretty cheap - I think they were $20 for a set of 4.
Adam Cherubini
Well-known member
I think the water slips are too soft for shaping tools. You are better off with oilstone files. In my experience, the matrix of water stones is better for broader surfaces. When you are working with smaller tools, or curved tools, the contact pressure gets too high and the stones deform quickly. Your results may vary.
By the by, I'm researching this subject for an upcoming seminar. Modern man made waterstones are almost all aluminum oxide, the same abrasive used in Norton's "India" slips, stone files. Ditto, spyderco ceramic files are also Al2O3. The difference between these products is the matrix that holds the ceramic abrasive more than anything else. The faster cutting stones are simply deforming faster, which is good and bad.
For your application I'd recommend India files or slips. If you get a new one, soak it in a light oil before use. I don't think its a bad idea to submerge it over night. Norton sells a honing oil that would work well for this application and it's not expensive. Many guys use "3 in 1" oil. In use, a blast of WD-40 (which is essentially kerosene) is helpful. I recommend using a squirt bottle instead of the ozone depleting spray can. Another good choice is automatic transmission fluid, or ATF cut with kerosene.
A clean India stone will cut satisfactorily and hold it's shape, allowing you to bevel off or reshape that inside profile. Be sure to clean it (the WD-40 works pretty darn well for this) before you put it away in a nice clean container. I used to store my india files in a pickle jar of oil. But I broke a couple dropping them in there (trying to keep my hands clean) and haven't yet found a better container.
Adam
By the by, I'm researching this subject for an upcoming seminar. Modern man made waterstones are almost all aluminum oxide, the same abrasive used in Norton's "India" slips, stone files. Ditto, spyderco ceramic files are also Al2O3. The difference between these products is the matrix that holds the ceramic abrasive more than anything else. The faster cutting stones are simply deforming faster, which is good and bad.
For your application I'd recommend India files or slips. If you get a new one, soak it in a light oil before use. I don't think its a bad idea to submerge it over night. Norton sells a honing oil that would work well for this application and it's not expensive. Many guys use "3 in 1" oil. In use, a blast of WD-40 (which is essentially kerosene) is helpful. I recommend using a squirt bottle instead of the ozone depleting spray can. Another good choice is automatic transmission fluid, or ATF cut with kerosene.
A clean India stone will cut satisfactorily and hold it's shape, allowing you to bevel off or reshape that inside profile. Be sure to clean it (the WD-40 works pretty darn well for this) before you put it away in a nice clean container. I used to store my india files in a pickle jar of oil. But I broke a couple dropping them in there (trying to keep my hands clean) and haven't yet found a better container.
Adam
F
Fred
Guest
Howard;
I would form a matching radius on the edge of a thin board and wrap a microabrasive over the radius and use this as a slip, though this is only to de-burr the sharpened edge and not to create an inner bevel, which is unnecessary.
I would form a matching radius on the edge of a thin board and wrap a microabrasive over the radius and use this as a slip, though this is only to de-burr the sharpened edge and not to create an inner bevel, which is unnecessary.
Adam Cherubini
Well-known member
Fred,
I had a professional furniture carver in my shop who explained it this way: The inner bevel makes room for the outer bevel.
Carving tools have a thickness. If all of that thickness is to the outside of a gouge, then the cut is narrower than the tool you must push into it. Back bevels split the difference. So he back bevels even (and especially) small gouges.
I don't think this is a right or wrong thing. It's certainly a matter of personal preference. But when he first told me about back bevels, I was thinking the only benefit was in using the tool upside down, which I agree one probably wouldn't do with a small veiner.
But when he explained that the back bevel moved the cutting edge into the center of the thickness of the tool, that made more sense to me. While he does it to most of his tools, the effect is especially poignant on tools with tight sweeps (like veiners).
I noticed you were interested in 19th c carving techniques. This guy is a master of 18th c carving techniques. He prefers sj addis tools and says most are found with edges shaped this way, which is an added value, saving him the time required to reshape Pfeils.
I'm not a carver. Please don't shoot the messenger. But be sure to check out my article about this guy carving a Philadelphia ball and claw in the Feb issue of Popular Woodworking. If you are interested in carving, this article is a must read. It's a step by step, cut by cut, description of this master at work. I think I submitted 35 photos, each taken of live action, which I believe to be unprecedented. I was shooting several frames per second with a dslr camera. So in addition to my notes, I was able to see how and where each cut began, whether he skewed the tool or not etc. I made a special note of all of the areas I have struggled with. It was a great experience and one I'm thrilled to share through the magazine.
John Previti, if you are reading this, please contact me offline. I'm hoping to force this gentleman into teaching a class on this subject. We need a venue in the Philadelphia area. Any suggestions?
Rereading- I have no secrets. I'm talking the Philadelphia Art Museum's in house 18th c carving expert Chris Storb. He reports to head conservator David DeMuzio, who many of you may know from mid year conferences and behind the scenes tours.
Adam
I had a professional furniture carver in my shop who explained it this way: The inner bevel makes room for the outer bevel.
Carving tools have a thickness. If all of that thickness is to the outside of a gouge, then the cut is narrower than the tool you must push into it. Back bevels split the difference. So he back bevels even (and especially) small gouges.
I don't think this is a right or wrong thing. It's certainly a matter of personal preference. But when he first told me about back bevels, I was thinking the only benefit was in using the tool upside down, which I agree one probably wouldn't do with a small veiner.
But when he explained that the back bevel moved the cutting edge into the center of the thickness of the tool, that made more sense to me. While he does it to most of his tools, the effect is especially poignant on tools with tight sweeps (like veiners).
I noticed you were interested in 19th c carving techniques. This guy is a master of 18th c carving techniques. He prefers sj addis tools and says most are found with edges shaped this way, which is an added value, saving him the time required to reshape Pfeils.
I'm not a carver. Please don't shoot the messenger. But be sure to check out my article about this guy carving a Philadelphia ball and claw in the Feb issue of Popular Woodworking. If you are interested in carving, this article is a must read. It's a step by step, cut by cut, description of this master at work. I think I submitted 35 photos, each taken of live action, which I believe to be unprecedented. I was shooting several frames per second with a dslr camera. So in addition to my notes, I was able to see how and where each cut began, whether he skewed the tool or not etc. I made a special note of all of the areas I have struggled with. It was a great experience and one I'm thrilled to share through the magazine.
John Previti, if you are reading this, please contact me offline. I'm hoping to force this gentleman into teaching a class on this subject. We need a venue in the Philadelphia area. Any suggestions?
Rereading- I have no secrets. I'm talking the Philadelphia Art Museum's in house 18th c carving expert Chris Storb. He reports to head conservator David DeMuzio, who many of you may know from mid year conferences and behind the scenes tours.
Adam
Mark Arnold
Well-known member
I've always heard that the cutting edge should be located roughly 2/3 to 3/4 as measured from the outside of the tool. I believe this is what Hasluck shows in his book. On very small veiners, however, the thickness of the metal at the tip would translate to a miniscule bevel. Unless you plan to carve lignum vitae, you probably wouldn't use a mallet to drive a small veiner, so I can see where the inside bevel becomes less of a factor on a smaller tool. Having said that, I generally hit all inside edges with a slipstone to the same degree as outside edges.
Fred,
Welcome to the forum. I have found your books to be some of the best on the subject.
Fred,
Welcome to the forum. I have found your books to be some of the best on the subject.
I learned to carve and sharpen with Chris Pye who prefers an inside bevel, but not on the deeper or very narrow gouges.
I used a thin wooden slip as Fred suggested, with very fine wet-dry sand paper and it seems to work.
Who is "Fred" and what books has he written?
Howard Steier
I used a thin wooden slip as Fred suggested, with very fine wet-dry sand paper and it seems to work.
Who is "Fred" and what books has he written?
Howard Steier
F
Fred
Guest
Howard,
Thanks for asking about my books. I have authored Carving Architectural Detail in Wood: the Classical Tradition; Carving Classical Styles in Wood; and Decorative Woodcarving: Accessories for the Home. Visit my website www.FrederickWilbur-woodcarver.com for further details.
Fred Wilbur
Thanks for asking about my books. I have authored Carving Architectural Detail in Wood: the Classical Tradition; Carving Classical Styles in Wood; and Decorative Woodcarving: Accessories for the Home. Visit my website www.FrederickWilbur-woodcarver.com for further details.
Fred Wilbur
MikeWenzloff
Well-known member
Fred,
Thank you for piping up as to who you are--I didn't know. I own two of your books and refer people to them. I'll have to check out the latest.
Take care, Mike
Thank you for piping up as to who you are--I didn't know. I own two of your books and refer people to them. I'll have to check out the latest.
Take care, Mike
Howard et al,
While it is true that a small inside bevel on a fluter or veiner (#10 or 11, London Pattern) may not serve all of the same purposes as on other gouges (sweeps # 3 - 9, London Pattern), I believe it can still be advantageous. For one thing, it is a relatively easy way to produce a satisfactory surface quality on the inside of the gouge, which is not inconsequential since the surface quality of both converging surfaces determines the quality of the cutting edge. While it certainly is possible to attain the same surface quality by resting your slip stone on the inside surface of the gouge during honing, if there are any significant irregularities of that surface, arriving at a satisfactory result can, sometimes, be quite laborious.
The primary advantage I see, though, is maintaining the same cutting geometry as your other carving gouges. One of the often overlooked upshots of the small inside bevel is that the outside bevel can be at a correspondingly more acute angle (relative to the longitudinal axis of the gouge) while still maintaining a large enough included angle to retain edge strength. This allows whatever force is applied to the gouge, whether by hand or mallet, to be transmitted along the tool at an angle closer to the desired direction of the cut. In other words, it's more efficient. By the same token, with fluters and veiners, the more acute outside bevel angle also slightly lessens the wedging effect at the sides/wings of the gouge as it passes through the wood. (Though I'm not convinced that this wedging action is entirely a negative.)
I've used both water and oil slipstones for creating and maintaining inside bevels, and think they each have advantages and disadvantages. For that reason, I guess I would recommend using whichever type fits in, best, with the rest of your sharpening regime. I've found that honing longitudinally with the water slipstones minimizes the downside of their faster wear characteristics. This, in turn, is offset by the fact that they tend to cut somewhat faster and are relatively easier to shape. However, with the use of diamond files and plates, oil slipstones can also be shaped, and their cutting surfaces kept fresh so that they are also fairly fast cutting. At present, I'm happily using oil slipstones since the balance of our sharpening regime incorporates oilstones.
Side note: If you are going to produce a small inside bevel on the sides/wings of, especially, veiners, the slipstone needs to be somewhat narrower than the width of the inside of the gouge in order to allow you to slightly tilt the stone, laterally, during honing. This is often overlooked by advocates of shaping a piece of wood, or whatever, for honing inside these gouges.
Finally, for all but the teeniest fluters/veiners, another option for creating and maintaining these small inside bevels might be a flex shaft grinder with aluminum oxide and rubberized abrasive rotary tips. These can also be shaped and freshened with diamond dressers and/or files. Probably only an economically realistic option if you have a lot of "profiled" cutting edges to maintain and sharpen, but I thought I'd mention this in the interest of inclusiveness. We use these quite regularly, though I have to admit that I still prefer slip stones for use with carving tools.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
While it is true that a small inside bevel on a fluter or veiner (#10 or 11, London Pattern) may not serve all of the same purposes as on other gouges (sweeps # 3 - 9, London Pattern), I believe it can still be advantageous. For one thing, it is a relatively easy way to produce a satisfactory surface quality on the inside of the gouge, which is not inconsequential since the surface quality of both converging surfaces determines the quality of the cutting edge. While it certainly is possible to attain the same surface quality by resting your slip stone on the inside surface of the gouge during honing, if there are any significant irregularities of that surface, arriving at a satisfactory result can, sometimes, be quite laborious.
The primary advantage I see, though, is maintaining the same cutting geometry as your other carving gouges. One of the often overlooked upshots of the small inside bevel is that the outside bevel can be at a correspondingly more acute angle (relative to the longitudinal axis of the gouge) while still maintaining a large enough included angle to retain edge strength. This allows whatever force is applied to the gouge, whether by hand or mallet, to be transmitted along the tool at an angle closer to the desired direction of the cut. In other words, it's more efficient. By the same token, with fluters and veiners, the more acute outside bevel angle also slightly lessens the wedging effect at the sides/wings of the gouge as it passes through the wood. (Though I'm not convinced that this wedging action is entirely a negative.)
I've used both water and oil slipstones for creating and maintaining inside bevels, and think they each have advantages and disadvantages. For that reason, I guess I would recommend using whichever type fits in, best, with the rest of your sharpening regime. I've found that honing longitudinally with the water slipstones minimizes the downside of their faster wear characteristics. This, in turn, is offset by the fact that they tend to cut somewhat faster and are relatively easier to shape. However, with the use of diamond files and plates, oil slipstones can also be shaped, and their cutting surfaces kept fresh so that they are also fairly fast cutting. At present, I'm happily using oil slipstones since the balance of our sharpening regime incorporates oilstones.
Side note: If you are going to produce a small inside bevel on the sides/wings of, especially, veiners, the slipstone needs to be somewhat narrower than the width of the inside of the gouge in order to allow you to slightly tilt the stone, laterally, during honing. This is often overlooked by advocates of shaping a piece of wood, or whatever, for honing inside these gouges.
Finally, for all but the teeniest fluters/veiners, another option for creating and maintaining these small inside bevels might be a flex shaft grinder with aluminum oxide and rubberized abrasive rotary tips. These can also be shaped and freshened with diamond dressers and/or files. Probably only an economically realistic option if you have a lot of "profiled" cutting edges to maintain and sharpen, but I thought I'd mention this in the interest of inclusiveness. We use these quite regularly, though I have to admit that I still prefer slip stones for use with carving tools.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Thanks Don
I'm talking about 1,2 and 3mm veiners. I can understand narrowing down water stone slips to this size. But how do you narrow down oil stone slips to such a narrow edge?
Is a coarse diamond stone necessary? Are very narrow oil stone slips commercially avaialble?
Fred,
Nice to meet you on line. I own two of your books and hope to meet you in person this summer at Mark Adams
Howard Steier
I'm talking about 1,2 and 3mm veiners. I can understand narrowing down water stone slips to this size. But how do you narrow down oil stone slips to such a narrow edge?
Is a coarse diamond stone necessary? Are very narrow oil stone slips commercially avaialble?
Fred,
Nice to meet you on line. I own two of your books and hope to meet you in person this summer at Mark Adams
Howard Steier
F
Fred
Guest
Howard;
Can you stand a few more words? I agree with Adam that there is no right or wrong to sharpening gouges--there are many variables. I was simply suggesting a way to create a small slip for veiners. Many new tools have fairly thick sections (and often more thickness at the bottom of the U) so some interior bevel may help, but for the most part on an 1/8 inch veiner I maintain that a significant bevel is unnecessary. (It is a joy to use well made gouges with thin section). With such a tool little depth is excavated. An exterior bevel of say, 15 degrees with a de-burring few degrees is sufficient.
The whole issue of interior bevels depends on the type of work to be done--heavy mallet blows to a large gouge wasting white oak requires more internal bevel and more robust angles. In handworking delicate detail on basswood, gouges with longer exterior bevels and less internal bevels are adequate (even advantageous). In setting in geometrical designs perpendicular to the surface is less accurate with large internal bevels.
The confusion dissipates as you experiment and practice for you own understanding and comfort level.
Can you stand a few more words? I agree with Adam that there is no right or wrong to sharpening gouges--there are many variables. I was simply suggesting a way to create a small slip for veiners. Many new tools have fairly thick sections (and often more thickness at the bottom of the U) so some interior bevel may help, but for the most part on an 1/8 inch veiner I maintain that a significant bevel is unnecessary. (It is a joy to use well made gouges with thin section). With such a tool little depth is excavated. An exterior bevel of say, 15 degrees with a de-burring few degrees is sufficient.
The whole issue of interior bevels depends on the type of work to be done--heavy mallet blows to a large gouge wasting white oak requires more internal bevel and more robust angles. In handworking delicate detail on basswood, gouges with longer exterior bevels and less internal bevels are adequate (even advantageous). In setting in geometrical designs perpendicular to the surface is less accurate with large internal bevels.
The confusion dissipates as you experiment and practice for you own understanding and comfort level.
Hi Howard,
Other manufacturers may offer suitable oil slip stones, but I'm familiar with the ones offered by Norton. I'm sure they're available through other suppliers, but I'm including a link to one for the sake of convenience:
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/norton_slips.htm
About two-thirds of the way down the page, under the heading of "Norton Carving Tool Slips," are four shapes, in both medium India and hard Arkansas versions. As you'll note, one of the shapes comes to a very fine knife edge, and the stones are only 3/16" at their thickest. You would probably still want to slightly round the knife edge for working inside small veiners, but the heavy shaping is already done. Obviously, these knife edges can be fairly fragile, but I've found they can be managed with care.
A coarse diamond stone will be fastest cutting when shaping such stones (and they've recently been on sale at surprisingly low prices), but finer ones would probably be adequate for the reshaping if all you are doing is slightly rounding the knife edges of slip stones such as the Norton's. And, of course, they can be used to maintain the shape and keep the abrasive fresh.
Hope this has been of some help.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Other manufacturers may offer suitable oil slip stones, but I'm familiar with the ones offered by Norton. I'm sure they're available through other suppliers, but I'm including a link to one for the sake of convenience:
http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/norton_slips.htm
About two-thirds of the way down the page, under the heading of "Norton Carving Tool Slips," are four shapes, in both medium India and hard Arkansas versions. As you'll note, one of the shapes comes to a very fine knife edge, and the stones are only 3/16" at their thickest. You would probably still want to slightly round the knife edge for working inside small veiners, but the heavy shaping is already done. Obviously, these knife edges can be fairly fragile, but I've found they can be managed with care.
A coarse diamond stone will be fastest cutting when shaping such stones (and they've recently been on sale at surprisingly low prices), but finer ones would probably be adequate for the reshaping if all you are doing is slightly rounding the knife edges of slip stones such as the Norton's. And, of course, they can be used to maintain the shape and keep the abrasive fresh.
Hope this has been of some help.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
R
rococojo
Guest
Hi Howard
I hardly use anything more than: a felt wheel & green Buffing soap, (Bee's wax works as well) fitted to: a reverse rotating grinder. Just hone lightly, both inside & out, creates a 'Cut-Through Razor' Edge, (and your chisel lasts longer?)
Rococojo
I hardly use anything more than: a felt wheel & green Buffing soap, (Bee's wax works as well) fitted to: a reverse rotating grinder. Just hone lightly, both inside & out, creates a 'Cut-Through Razor' Edge, (and your chisel lasts longer?)
Rococojo