Removing applied carving from substrate

H

HSteier

Well-known member
In the past when I would make appplied carvings I would have trouble removing them from the substrate. I have used various techniques to secure the carvings to the substrate including double stick tape, hide glue etc  but have found that any method I used that held the pieces securely would invariably result in my cracking the carvings when I removed them from the substrate. Recently however I tried something that worked spectacularly well.
I used hide glue and used a piece of brown paper bag between the substrate and piece to be carved. I clamped the pieces to assure good adhesion. In order to seperate them after carving I placed them in a microwave oven. I ran it long enough to get the wood hot, but not too hot to touch (sort of like hot toast). I figured the heat would soften the glue and allow easy removal; but the results were even better. The microwave boiled all the water out of the hide glue, the glue was dry and brittle, and the carving popped right off the underlying substrate and paper. The bottom surface of the carved piece was as clean as a whistle.
The only problem was I couldn't find an 18th century microwave oven.

Howard Steier

 
Hi Howard,

I don't know how period appropriate it is...Back when I actually did smallish carvings I have coated a substrate with wax, scraped it relatively thin and even, heated it until soft next to a wood stove (at the time our source of heat) and applied the wood to be carved. The wax has to be soft and not liquid else it soaks into the wood to be carved, which means staining is out. I did use analine dyes in shellac successfuly to color the wood a few times before using pigmented heavier glazes. Mostly, though, I simply used shellac as a sole finish.

When it was time to remove the carving, which often had pierced or carved-through sections, I would take a thin piano wire that I heated by laying it on the hot stove and sliding it between the carving and substrate.

The substrate needs to be held firmly when removing the carving. I used wedges between bench dogs (my bench had no vises at the time).

Take care, Mike
 
Hi Howard, I just use a “rub joint” with brown paper between (No cramps), glued with (hand veneering glue) I use scotch glue, and leave to set. Do the job. To remove: a slight tap with a wide firmer chisel on the glue line, and its off, the brown paper splits down its centre, have to scrape clean after. Works well for applied carvings, use it on most things, all the time.
I'm thinking your cramping made your glue penetrate right through the brown paper.
 
Very interesting, Howard.  I rather wonder about the accuracy of the intervening paper joint, at least as an historically authentic method of holding thin and delicate tracery carvings before application to a drawer front.  From what I've read, paper was -extremely- expensive in the day, and was not available in very large sizes, so I would think that its use as a disposable holding method for carvings would be doubtful.

Mike's solution (where'd you get this Mike?  Does it have an historical antecedent?) seems a whole lot more likely - beeswax was a common item in a cabinet shop.
 
Hi David,

Most likely my grandfather was where I learned this. He was the person who encouraged me to begin carving. Carving tools were the first tools I ever paid money for. I'm fairly date challenged but I suspect I was about 7 years old when he showed me how to use carving tools. I was twelve or so when I bought my first couple carving tools. I was thirteen when I proudly bought my first Marples set. Still have them.

I've always used the type of wax he used, which is canning wax from the grocery store. Same stuff I use on my tools to reduce friction. It is a fairly firm wax unlike raw bee's wax. Don't know how to make bee's wax less soft and sticky.

But I have no idea where he learned to use wax, nor have I seen or read about it--it never has ocurred to me to give it any thought. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Take care, Mike
 
If we do not agree there method was using (brown) or any paper at all (because of its size), just wax instead? and this I must question? but I leave that to the reader of this post to decide.
so let's take they used wax.
Because the paper method, was an improvement on say wax.
exploring  this further.
They Wore  clothes: a piece of  ‘Shirt’ material could have been (or was) used? The Shirt was part of their Dress, do we all agree.
  A piece would be glued (with animal or fish glue)?
Question, Hope we accept they used glue. (Whoopee, that’s me joking)
Then proceed as explained to.
Howard, I just use a “rub joint” with brown paper between (No cramps), glued with (hand veneering glue) I use scotch glue, and leave to set. Do the job. To remove: a slight tap with a wide firmer chisel on the glue line, and its off, the brown paper splits down its centre, have to scrape clean after. Works well for applied carvings, use it on most things, all the time.
Regards.
An Interesting answer comes next.
Very interesting, Howard.  I rather wonder about the accuracy of the intervening paper joint, at least as an historically authentic method of holding thin and delicate tracery carvings before application to a drawer front.  From what I've read, paper was -extremely- expensive in the day, and was not available in very large sizes, so I would think that its use as a disposable holding method for carvings would be doubtful.

Mike's solution (where'd you get this Mike?  Does it have an historical antecedent?) seems a whole lot more likely - beeswax was a common item in a cabinet shop.
Regards

To Mike & in Particular D Keller
They wrote full size letters didn’t they, not postage stamp sized letters. So why make out it was expensive, or not available in very large sizes. Your theory is Poppy cock, answers like that do not build credibility, just confusion.
Note:  An original, Period furniture book, named’The Grammar of Ornament’, from the mid 1800, which I own, is 3 inches thick.
In its: Preface: Owen Jones 1856. MDCCCLV1.
Its pages measure: 22 inches by 141/2 inches.
An original copy of “The Gentleman & Cabinetmakers Director, by Thomas Chippendale, 1754 is the same size.

Joseph Hemingway (rococojo)

 

 
When I was helping John Bivins restore the carvings in the Miles Brewton house in Charleston, S. C.  in '89, we found traces of 18th century newspaper on the botton of some the applied carvings.  That is what he tought me to use, and it works well.

Kirk
 
I Thank you, Kirk,  Support and Knolage go hand in Hand.
 
Mike - the "store" wax is parafin wax made from petrochemicals, at least the kind I'm familiar with used to seal the tops of jelly in canning jars.  And you're quite right, it's a good deal harder at room temperature than pure beeswax.  It was not, of course, available in the 18th century, though I've no real authoritative information regarding whether harder, naturally-derived waxes like carnauba were available during the time period.  Whether historical or not, it's an interesting technique, I intend to give it a try this weekend when I set up a vine carving.

Kirk - interesting comment;  I've not heard of someone authenticating paper use on the backs of carvings from the 18th century.  I wonder if John took pictures of that and published it?  I suppose it's a minor historical sideline, but I'd find it very interesting.

Joe - This is all I'll say on this subject, but I'll ask you not to bring the adversarial tone that you've posted with on other popular woodworking forums here.  I'm not the moderator, but I suspect there will be considerably less tolerance of name-calling here than on larger, less managed forums.  Remember that there is very little authoritative information on 18th century techniques other than what can be specifically gleaned from the physical evidence, much of which has been altered or modified in the 2 centuries since its creation, and the exchange of opinions on the subject should not be shouted down, regardless of the expertise or lack thereof of the one doing the shouting.
 
It's a credit to the SAPFM that someone with such vast and great knowledge can put everyone in their place, because we are the young upstarts in the furniture world.

I cannot find where Mike claimed that what "he did" was historically correct. I was under the impression when I joined this forum it was for the sharing of knowledge, not chastising someone's lack thereof. If this society is to be an elitist group, then I suspect the number of members will dwindle. Talking down to everyone will win you few friends.
 
Having time to think about this, I can see 2 clear problems with the use of wax.

1, The holding power of wax could or would never match that of any glue.
2, Once the wood was contaminated with wax, gluing/fixing would be your next problem.
From my notes: I attended: Huddersfield Collage of Technology, 1957-64, on a day release. In 1960, at an openday.we had a problem to solve in woodworking theory. How to clean the creosote from the surface of a railway sleeper, to make it bond, we tested: Solvents, Planeing, & Sawing.
Answer: Could not be done.
Now the wax would be on the surface only, not all the way through, so a solvent could clean.
But: the paper/glue method, would enhance the joint, paper originating from wood.

Rococojo




 
A much kinder and thought out response Joseph.

I have no idea why you chose me to go ballistic on. Baffles me. I do not see in this thread where I attacked you or your posts.

I did relate my experience in this matter. I do not really care whether the method I used is an 18th century period method or not--sorry folks if that affends. Tis but one way to solve the issue.

For smaller appliqués where one is not bashing about with a mallet with the tool at a low aspect, the wax holds fine. It is easily cleanable with turpentine followed by a bit of denatured alcohol. A light scuff with fine sandpaper and the carving to be applied can be readily glued down.

fwiw, the wax doesn't really soak in. It merely creates a bond. And like David noted, I used parrafin. So probably non-period--18th century wise--from one end of the process to the other. Then again, I never claimed it was.

I have used paper for split turnings. Works if the glue is not applied too heavily else it so permeates that splitting apart is iffy. I cannot imagine using it on smaller appliqués simply due to the risk of breaking thin edges or carved through aspects of it.

I have also used a wedge carving board for larger carvings to be applied. This works great, too. No glue--or wax--to mess with.

Have a great day.

Mike
 
The reason I posted this originally was to let anyone who was interested know about the "microwave effect" and how the microwave dried out the glue so that the carving came right off. The substrate, paper and carving all seperated clean as a whistle. Certainly there are other methods that work well for other people

On a different tack, Mike mentioned split turnings. I have glued these up with hide glue and brown paper bag, clamped the pieces to assure a tight joint and have never had any problem splitting them out with a chisel. There seems to be enough material in the brown bag so that it splits out along the bag rather than having the wood split.

This is another reason to get paper instead of plastic at the grocery store.

Howard Steier
 
Hi Howard,

And I really didn't thank you for that tip--my brain was in share mode instead. I really should get out more!

I use the nuclear oven for many things, including helping to lower initial moisture levels from blanks for handles. About the only thing the ancient, huge but underpowered relic of a microwave oven we had from years ago is good for.

I'll have to try the nuker for small delicate carvings if and when I ever see shop time for carving again.

When we lived in the cabin for the 10 years or so with no running water and no electrikity, the wax and wedge boards work well. Which reminds me of the latest PopWood editorial I read at lunch today. Schwarz wrote about how the furniture he had made looked different via candle light during the recent power outages.

A lot of the carving for dollars and fun I did in that cabin. I learned a lot about shadows and the depth--or lack thereof--apparent in carvings working by candle and kerosene lamps. All raking light, really, with wonderful shadows working through the winter nights. Back lit by the glow of the moon cascading through the picture windows. Geez, I'm getting all nostalgic, sorry.

Take care, Mike
 
Hi Folks,

I have followed this thread with interest as I have been thinking about trying a Philadelphia piece, low boy most likely, with the applied foliage carvings.  I was wondering how this thin and delicate pieces were held while carving.  Which leads me to the question,  how "tall", or deep, are these carvings?  They would appear to be about 1/4 to 3/8 inches or so to me.  Is that about right?  With something this delicate it must take great care to remove them from the board and then attach to the piece!  Is there anything in any of the magazines or books that describes this process?

Gary
 
hi gary, the carving can be very thin? and still held with paper between, holding your work to the stock or substrate. if its gossamer thin? run a hacksaw or coping saw blade down the joint, to split the paper,  taking the greatest care to support your work.
 
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