LN Shooting plane steel

albreed

Well-known member
Has anyone else found that the steel in the LN shooting plane blades is brittle? I touched up the factory bevel and honed it a bit and found it would break down and leave tracks after a few passes. I put a secondary bevel on it and that helped. Seems the steel is too hard.-Al
 
Hi Al,

25 degree primary bevel on a 20 degree beded bevel up plane using A2 steel is a bit of a stretch for edge retention.

When I had my LN No. 9, I had the same issue. (In fact, I simply dislike A2 for blades anyway.) You can try to get to less brittle steel by grinding back an 1/8" or a little less and redoing the primary bevel. That helped me. Going to a little higher angle bevel help even more. A 30 degree primary bevel was best.

I found using a back bevel of 5 degrees in conjunction with the 25 degree primary bevel to provide the best performance in shooting. Some don't want the extra hassle of a back bevel. It is a hassle--it needs to be able to be reproduced consistently each time one sharpens. So I understand that.

Take care, Mike
 
I recently had similar problems with a LV BU Jack that I had been using on a shooting board -- 12 deg. bed angle with 25 deg. primary bevel (and two microbevels). Everything was fine until I used it to take a quick swipe on a cherry table apron. The edge crumbled and tracked. I didn't realize until reading this post what caused it...I must have A2 steel.

If I add a 5 degree back bevel, should I continue to hone the 26 & 27 degree microbevels? Maybe I should just switch to an 01 blade for shooting...
Thanks,
Allan
 
Allan,

Both A2 and O1 will fail at low bevel angles, they just do it differently. I do prefer O1 simply because it is easier to hone. I use primarily oil stones and A2 is a pita on them. Even when I used Shaptons, there is a noticeable difference in speed of renewing an edge.

On either type of steel, if there is significant wear in a localized spot such as in shooting, I go straight to a belt sander before honing to get past the wear.

As for back bevels, there is no need for a micro bevel or secondary bevel on the primary edge. Either a secondary bevel or a back bevel accomplishes the task of strengthening the edge.

The notion of low angles such as on a bevel down or up plane to shoot with is sort of erroneous. I have shot edges using a Gordon 60 degree jack and it works just fine.

Take care, Mike
 
Thanks a lot, Mike. I guess next time I actually buy a new plane I'll get 01 steel. I also have used a Stanley no.7 for shooting, and the only reason I sprang for the LN was to get the nice large machined base to avoid tipping with the no.7, and in that respect it's great.
In tuning up many LN planes for students I've also noticed that they tend to have a slight hollow as you sight across the cutting edge holding the blade perp. to the floor. This must be from the tempering, and it raises havoc with the " take it out of the box and just use it" crowd, since it is just the opposite shape that most of my blades are at.
 
Hi Al--I loved my LN No. 9. It does make for a very stable shooting plane. I also liked using it on my miter jack because of the weight against that 45 deg. angled face.

I now use a Beech miter plane (strike block) that is bevel down bedded at 38 degrees I had made for me by Philly Planes in England. My wife is also going to have a skew version made for her. The skew version makes for a very easy slicing motion.

If I recall, LN is now producing O1 blades. I don't know if that applies to the No. 9 or not.

Take care, Mike
 
Hi Al

Have you had this #9 long? I am wondering if the blade is new?

I have three LN block planes with A2 blades plus a bunch (!) of LV BU planes also with A2 blades. Of note, I have a LV LA Jack that gets used on a shooting board and has used the same A2 blade ground and honed at 25 degrees for some years now.

A2 is not recommended to be ground under 30 degrees. It is interesting that it is supplied at 25 degrees!  In my experience most A2 blades seem to do just fine at 25 degrees. Some new A2 blades, however, chip a smidgeon when first used. I have had this with both LN and LV blades. What appears to be the cause (I am surmising) is that the tempering process has left the edge of the bevel a little over hard and, therefore, brittle. When I have ground them back (again a smidgeon) the blades have behaved themselves thereafter.

I tend to opt for A2 over O1 steel because it has better abrasion resistance. The woods I use, such as Jarrah, are very abrasive as they contain highish levels of silica. A2 just last longer than O1. Here in Oz many take the option of HSS and D2, which is another story when it comes to honing.

I think that the resistance to A2 comes from those who find sharpening more time consuming. This may be a result of inappropriate sharpening media. Using Shaptons, for example, makes it as easy as one could imagine. And I find no difference in the degree of "sharpness" against O1. I suspect (not having tried this) that oil stones would not work well.

I think that if I worked with less abrasive woods, I too would just go for O1. It really is easier to hone. But A2 offers better endurance.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Well, I feel like a pygmy amongst giants, but I'd still like to put in my two cents worth and ask some questions.
First, what difference does it make if a miter plane leaves tracks on a miter? The planed surface is covered up in the joint.
Next, I can't tell the difference between a $100 Bordeaux and a $10 bottle of Virgina wine (Virginia is the third largest wine producer in the U.S.) And so far, I haven't been able to discern much difference in sharpening the various plane blades I have (Stanley, LN, LV, Hock, and others)
How much difference is there in edge longevity between the A2 and O1 blades?
How much more difficult is it to flatten and hone the A2 blade compared with the O1 blade. I really can't tell the difference.
Also, I'm interested in comments about Shapton stones. My water stones are about to wear out and I'm considering Shaptons.
Should I get the "professional" grade or the less expensive glass backed stones? For American domestic hardwoods and mahagony, would you suggest 5000 grit? 8000 grit?
What about flattening these stones. I have read that the higher grits "never" need flattening. Is this true or just marketing hype? What about flattening the 1200 grit stone? Will I need a coarse diamond stone?


Thanks to all

Howard Steier
 
Al - I suggest you contact Lie-Nielsen about this issue.  The A2 blade supplied with my #9 miter had exactly the same symptoms - the very edge was brittle and would chip and cut tracks in end grain in anything as hard as or harder than mahogany - woods such as walnut, cherry and maple were guaranteed to mess up the blade in one pass.  As weird as this seems, the edge was also too soft in addition to being brittle - hard woods would typically both chip the edge and roll it over.

L-N listened to my woes, and sent me a new A2 blade to fit the #9.  It made an enormous difference - I hollow-ground and honed this blade over 3 months ago, I use it with nearly every job, and it still cuts end-grain shavings that stay together off of the end of maple and cherry boards (i.e., it's sharp enough not to create dust instead of shavings).  Lie-Nielsen suggested that they'd had some quality issues with their A2 supplier a while back, and that had resulted in some excessively fragile blades.
 
Thanks very much Dave and Derek from Perth- Sounds like either I grind it back a little or call the company.

Howard- I can't have the blade acting like tin foil and leaving striations all over the cut. My $35 Stanley No. 7 acted way better than that, so not only do dull tools make me nuts, but for the money I expect the steel to actually work. I'm sure the mitre would glue up just fine, but it's the principle of the thing that bugs me, because I really like the plane otherwise.

I know this is a real page-turner, so I'll let you know what happens-Al
 
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