Interior Doors

Sonar

Member
Not a period furniture question but asking a knowledgeable group.  I am going  to make new interior doors for my older home, replicating the old ones.  The question is, what is the best way to make them for stability and strength?  I will be making the doors out of cherry. Most of the doors will have two long wooden vertical panels separated by a stile, while a few of the doors will have a single multi pane glass panel assembly.

I have discussed this with a few manufacturers.  Some recommend dowels for joinery and some recommend lag bolts.  As far as stile construction some recommend face gluing two 0.875 inch pieces while others recommend gluing up long staves to make a 1.o inch thick core and then laminating this core with 0.375 inch stock on each side.

Any help with this will be appreciated.

Thanks
Carl
 
Personally I would use through mortise and tennons. I would us Solid stock, and use 1/4 sawn for the rails and stiles.
 
I have built lots of doors, interior and exterior, using solid stock with loose tenon joinery. That way you can use a shaper to cope and stick, and you get what I would consider the stength of the "real" tenon. You can make a lot of doors this way efficiently.
I really never believed in the story about laminating door rails and stiles. I know some "maunfacturers" use this techinique, but if you are selecting your own stock for the parts by hand, I think you should be able to select lumber that will behave. There are lots of well made doors that have lasted hundreds of years from solid stock. This laminatjng technique is probably an attempt by "engineers" to cover up poor stock selection or to aid in the general speed of the process(no wants to wait the extra time(expense) for 8/4 to season). And, yes, I do have an engineering degree. I think that is what drew me to building furniture in the first place.
 
Timely question - from my point of view at least. I’m also building doors for my house. I’ve studied solid wood doors (both old and new) for some time in preparation for the task, and noticed a few things:

-The laminated core construction was called a “no warp” door. They were far more expensive, and were *not* a cost cutting technique. In fact, the manufacturer lauded their complex construction as a means of minimizing the chance for warped stiles and twist. The technique is used today due to the expense of high quality face lumber, and abundance of automated machinery makes it cheaper than a solid wood door made from first rate materials. But it’s still a good door making technique.

-In the best “no warp” door construction, the strips used to create the lumber core are sawn and glued up so that the grain is aligned vertically (as if it was sawn from quarter sawn stock).

-I’ve not seen a door w/ the laminated construction that has warped or twisted. I have seen a number of solid wood doors with problems. Almost always the problems originate in the long stiles. I believe all of the problem doors did not use radial grain (quarter sawn) stock. So the lesson I learned from observation is that the most important parts of the doors are the stiles, and they should be selected from the best possible stock.

-I have a friend that had a number of doors custom built for his house. The first batch were all made from solid cherry. Most of these doors have warped and twisted a bit. On his second batch, he specified laminated doors, and these have stayed true. When he heard I was making my own doors, he told me about his experience and strongly urged me to go with a laminated core design.

-Surprisingly, I’ve not seen any significant problems w/ the veneer on the laminated doors. They all have used thick veneer though, not the stuff you typically get from the veneer merchants.

-When creating my doors I chose to use the laminated construction technique. My doors are for a Victorian house so I have some large openings to fill. I wanted the ensure stability. I do not trust most of the lumber I can readily purchase at the lumberyard, so I chose to mill the core-stock from old Victorian era beams sold at the salvage yard. This proved inexpensive, and the resulting stock is unbelievably stable. Besides, I’m a cheapskate, and I can call it “green”!  :)

-Another advantage of using the laminated construction technique is it allowed me to resaw all the face veneers from a large, perfect piece of wood. As a result, all the doors will match perfectly. Also, I could use any type of cut for the face veneers though ironically, I ended up choosing simple vertical grain since I plan to veneer the center panels w/ Burl wood.

-The laminated technique is in my opinion very superior, but far more labor intensive. If I planned to paint my doors instead of leaving them natural, I would probably mill the material from old wood oriented for vertical grain for the stiles. This would be very superior to using that flat sawn stock from young trees available at my local lumberyard.

On the topic of how to put the doors together; In my observation dowels and bolts are a hack. These doors do not last; I’ve witnessed them fail first hand. I’ve built doors w/ floating tenons, and true full tenons. The floating tenon method is quite strong, especially if you have three or more rails on the door and double up on the tenons for the large doors. The floating tenons are faster to produce, and will save considerably on lumber costs.

For doors that are mostly glass, I would make them up w/ true full tenons. These are stronger, and I have seen some joint failures on older glass panel doors, even w/ true tenons. So it’s obvious the extra strength is needed on these types of doors.

I hope all this helps!

JB
 
JB,

If you come to my house I will show you interior raised panel laminated doors that have cupped and twisted!  The veneer on these interior doors is very thin, not thck at all.

Several years ago I had new 36" and 40" exterior raised panel laminated doors installed.  All six surfaces were oil primed and then painted.  Within 6 months both doors had the thick veneer bubble, split and curl up.  I called the mfg. and they replaced both doors.  Again, within 6 months both doors had the thick veneer bubble, split and curl up.  I called them again and they replaced the two doors again but I have not had time to install them.  Your theory of laminated doors not twisting and cupping is simply not true. 

The inner core of these doors is usually made from the cheapest knotty pine they can buy.  Today, most mfg. are in fierce competition and the only way to lower their cost is by using cheaper materials. 

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 
Dennis- I think your doors are warping due to bad materials and bad glueing. I'm pretty much a purist, but my friend makes big laminated doors with 1/8 veneer and they do really well.
As far as dowels are concerned, I've come to the conclusion from years of repairing stuff that they are completely useless. When I was a kid an antique dealer showed me how to quickly tell a period upholstered chair from a repro: whack the leg with your fist just below the rail and the dowelled repro will separate...it works. I suppose you could bolt doors together but I've never seen it.
I think the best insurance, as many have pointed out, is really good stock selection, especially in the lock rail, which can be quite wide, and through tenons.-Al
 
Hi Al,

I agree with you, bad material and glueing.  The good news is only a few of my interior doors are warping, but that's still a few to many.  The exterior doors have 1/8" veneer and are made by a well know major mfg.  My point is that today many mfg. are cutting costs by using cheaper materials and cutting quality. (Look at the cover up Toyota just did!)  Everone is fighting for sales.

Dennis Bork
 
15 or 20 years ago, I bought a a door for the back of my house from the large home supply store in a nearby city. I knew that the door stiles should be made of extremely fine grained, perfectly quartered stock. Douglas fir makes an excellent door, and I selected one with very fine, perfectly vertical grain fir. The door was probably a couple hundred dollars and I knew good stock alone would probably cost me half as much. I took the door home, measured and needed to cut an inch or so from its length. When I did, I learned my beautiful fir stilles and rails were veneered. The stock that was covered, was, of course, very poor, even finger jointed in places. I am still sore about this. Of course this door became crooked. After a few years, it was sent to the dump where it belonged.
Door stiles need to be quartersawn. Yes it is expensive to find clear 5-7 inch wide ,7 foot long quartered pieces for the stiles. Those are the most important(hardest to find) pieces you will need to build doors. I usually pick the very best of my pieces for the stile that is opposite the hinge side, hoping the hinges themselves will tend to help keep hinge stile straight. Its a lot easier to find the shorter rail pieces, they still should be quartered, but they are a lot easier to find since they are usually so short. I am unsure if maunfacturers can economically source the thick, clear, long quartered stock at a reaonable price. I think that is why there are laminated doors.
 
Mike,
I made my own exterior door using a method I learned from a friend who made architectural doors.
The stiles and rails consist of poplar interior with 1/4'' laminate of the wood you will be using (ex. oak), glued to the poplar. The ouside rails and stiles have a 1" piece(ex. oak) glue to them for lock sets, hinges, etc.  This was done before gluing on the laminate. I used pinned mortise and tenon construction.
I slightly oversized the thickness of the door in order to have it run through a thickness sander.
I also put a 2 degree bevel on the side of the door that accepts the door knob.
After 10 years the door has not warped.

Ed Stuckey
 
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