Honduras Mahogony

Scott

Active member
Does anybody have any experience with a any of the african mahogany substitutes for genuine mahogany such as utile or sepele most specifically utile. South American mahogany is becoming very scarce and very expensive in our area It is especially  hard to find thicker stock.  Anyhow the lumber yard is pushing utile as very similar with just lighter color that can be dyed to look like genuine.  I am very concerned about using this for period furniture that contains hundreds of hours with carvings, veneers and inlays.  My inclination is to order the real mahogany and pay shipping charges on top.  Just looking for anyones opinion or experience.
Scott
 
Scott,

I tried using African mahogany once.  Never again!  I'm not even sure why I did it because we have a ready supply of Honduran mahogany here in Houston.  I found alot in inconsistency in the density of the wood. It seemed harder in some spots and softer in others.  This made it harder to work with and much more difficult to finish.  My advice... stick with the real stuff.
 
Aaarrrggghhh

I just went to my local (only one in the Norfolk Va. area) hardwood retailer to pick up two small pieces of honduras mahogony to finish a project.  It was over $9 a board foot. Does anyone know if there's any relief in site? The price has doubled in the past few years.

Howard Steier
 
Last week I was talking to Steve Wall at Wall Lumber(triad NC) and he told me that it's probably going to keep getting higher. All of this is a result of supplies becoming more restricted. Millwork in this area has for the most part switched to African Mahogany, with some using spanish cedar for exterior work. He also informed me that walnut was once again higher than cherry and cherry had leveled off for the time being.
 
My suppliers in Wisconsin tell me the same story.  Just bit the bullet and pay the price.

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 
FYI - It's likely that all south american mahogany will become unavailable very shortly.  Several environmental organizations championed its inclusion on the CITES (Convention on Trade in Endangered Species) list, which prompted Brazil to stop exports in the early '00s.

The logic of these organizations is that while Mahogany is in no way rare or endangered, the logging of mahogany and the export of the raw timber was interfering with the development of a native millwork industry.  By developing in-country value-added products, the hope was to make the forest too expensive to cut down for pasture land.

Since then, the source of S.A. mahogany has switched to Peru, which did not accept the CITES listing and export bans since it claimed that they had a well-enforced concessions program in place to prevent illegal logging (this is true, by and large).

These same environmental organizations switched tactics late last year and decided to sue the 3 largest U.S. importers of mahogany, claiming that it was their responsibility to enforce the CITES restrictions.  This case is currently in the courts.  Even if not successful, it's likely the businesses will decide that dealing with S.A. mahogany is not justified because of the legal cost of the lawsuits.

Those are the facts as reported by WoodShop News.  IMO, these groups are unbelievably mis-guided, but that's just my opinion.

 
Scott,

I've used african mahogany before and believe there are good uses for it.  If you are going for a strict reproduction it should probably be ruled out.  My experience was that it's very similar to S.A.  but with a livelier figure.  It tends to have more streaks of varying color which is often nice.  While the color can be nice I would also refrain from using it for things like chairs or fretwork because uniform color serves that type of work better in my opinion.  I had no real problems working it but it did have a tendency toward that ribbon stripe, reversing grain quality.  Sometimes you just need that scraper.  All in all I think it's a pretty wood and worth checking out for the right project especially the way south american is going.  Ive ordered s.a. before and gotten mixed species.  From now on when I buy, it will probably only be in 12 or 16 1/4 and then resaw it.  I've always gotten the real thing that way. 
good luck 
 
Ditto the last response. Be prepared for endless tearout when planing because of large areas of reversing grain. It needs to be sanded or scraped. 
It does finish nicely. I made a coffee table top with African mahogony and finished with shellac. Lots of shimmer and reflection.

Howard Steier
 
One thing you can do, if you are willing to accept smaller amts, is to look for used.  Sometimes guys who collect junk, old furniture, salvaged building parts etc., have parts of old pcs furniture or paneling that you can get very good quality mahogany and cheap.  Albeit, smaller pcs than may be nescessary for your projects.  Be on the lookout for widows selling off their husbands hobby stuff, and keep an eye on the adds in the paper for other variations.  Thats how I got 20-30yr old ca, sa, mahogany.  Also, I happened onto the sheriffs sale location when Blue Moon Mahogany went under.  This was the plantation grown cuban stuff.  You have to be ready to move quickly though.  Good luck.
John Previti
 
The price for honduras mahogany will not go down any time soon. Mahogany has always been listed with CITES, but the rating change in Nov, 2003 to appendix II. This means that now the CITES export documents have to be ratifed by a scientific authority from that country that the lumber has been obtained in a manner that does not harm the long term survival of the species. From import of about 60 million bd ft in the early 90's, the US now imports about 15 million bd ft, have of that from Peru. Peruvian mahogany is classified as Apendix II, same as every other country in the neotropics (N & S America). Honduras and cuban mahogany from the Pacific Islands, like Fiji and Palau are exempt from CITES because they are plantation grown outside its normal growing range.
Bad news is their quality is poor, mahogany is a product of its environment. Nicaragua just placed a 10 year moratorium on mahogany exports, some can leave Nicaragua if value added is applied. Peru has cut back by 5% on CITES export quotas, and has cracked down on illegal shipments. Illegal shipments are at the heart of the lawsuit filed in the US, it is common knowledge in most countries that exporters get a permit to ship 100 M3 and then ship 200 M3, but show documents at only 100 M3. There is talk in both Peru and Bolivia to only allow mahogany to be exported if the exporteds do not ship out lumber, only value added products.

More bad news.
Mahogany trees that are cut down in a forest will not re-generate on their own. Young Mahogany trees are a shade intolerant species and need sunlight to grow. It is estimated that 1 acre must be cleared in a closed forest to get enough sunlight to allow mahogany saplings to grow to maturity.

Some good news.
I am an owner in a company in the Caribbean that has a 50 year old mahogany plantation. I have a steady supply of honduran mahogany that is superior to most cuban mahogany. I have in the past imported over 35,000 bd ft of cuban mahogany from Cuba, the first legal shipments from there since 1959, and supplied the White House last year with 100 year old cuban mahogany for repairs to the Eisenhower Executive Office (otherwise known as Dick Cheney's office), so I make that comparison with the ability to back it up. I will offer any member in good standing of SAPFM a discount of 10 to 20% off(depending on volume) our mahogany. I have a big price range, from $5 to $20 bd ft, but it is all a great value. At $20 bd ft you would get a complete flitch of very figured, very dense, wide, clear mahogany. At $5 you will get nice boards, 3 to 6 ft long, 4 to 8" wide. I can offer highly figured, extremely dense bookmatched flitches, crotches, complete trees cut to size, stumps, roots, small pieces for small buyers, and I also have 15 flitches of true cuban mahogany coming in soon, all 100% legal in the US, all 100% environmentally friendly. With our replanting program already started, we will have a continuous supply for the next 50 years and beyond. I am a recent member of SAPFM, this is my passion, this is what I love to do, I have spent the last 24 years in various woodworking related businesses, furniture building, woodworking machinery, as well as lumber. I have stock in Toronto, Canada and some near Nashville, TN. I am very open to anyone who would like to be a distributor for this product in their area, especially to focus on SAPFM members. I would love to have someone reliable and trustworthy to work with in the New England area especially. My references include Alf Sharpe of Tennessee, he purchased some of my mahogany last fall.
 
As the others have noted, African mahogany will tear out much more than genuine mahogany. There are 5 species of Khaya, some are more stable than others, but not as stable as Honduras mahogany. There is also a big problem with other species being mixed in the pile and sold as the same thing. African mahogany will not develop the colour of Honduras mahogany. If your honduras mahogany is yellow, put it in warm sunshine for a day or two and watch it turn red. African mahogany will not darken like that, and it is also not durable outside. It is probably not as strong as honduras mahogany, so it is not great for chairs or especially not cabriole legs, although density is most important for that for either species. I would not recommend using African mahogany for a reproduction piece of furniture, the cost savings in the lumber will be far less than the difference in quality and value of the finished piece.  African mahogany is a great substitute for Honduras for items such as commercial millwork, production furniture and simplier items, but if quality, stabilty and longevity are important, you need the real thing
 
All,

The attached photo is a Philly chest-on-chest that was on exhibit at the Telfair Museum last Spring.  It is hon. mahogany with African ribbon mahogany drawer fronts.  The Af. mah. was extremely stable to work with, however, I did notice that all of thr boards for the drawer fronts were quarter sawn or close to it.  It also stunk terrible when planned or sanded and was somewhat fuzzy.  When stained (water base) it matched the hon. mag. exact, at least my boards did. 

If it is not suitable for cabriole legs or chair legs I would like to know why.  Why is it not suitable as compared to using soft maple or tiger maple or cherry or walnut?

Dennis Bork
Antiquity Period Designs, Ltd.
 

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the African that I have carved was terrable . very hard and the grain was something completly different than South American
 
for Dennis

biggest problem with African mahogany is inconsistency of the product. There are 5 species of Khaya (true african mahogany) and they vary in density, stability and colour. There are probably 20+ other species that look close when rough sawn, and guess what happens at the mill in Africa when it is time to ship???? And guess what happens when it gets here and the wholesaler can't tell the difference, if he cares??? I recently graded a pile of 1000 bd ft of khaya ivorensis. 92 bd ft was khaya ivorensis, 120 bd ft seemed to be, but maybe not, the rest was at least 3 other unknown species. Until it was skip dressed, we could not tell anything apart. We just knew that it did not seem right. Also, when we dressed it, it tore out badly. I dress a lot of figured genuine mahogany, it tears a little, but not too bad if the knives are sharp, the african was horrible, and it wasn't even figured.

Ribbon stripe is quartersawn, almost any species is stable as quartersawn lumber. African mahogany is stable compared to oak or maple, but not as stable as genuine mahogany. It also does not have the strength or bending characteristics of genuine mahogany, nor does it carve as well, and I greatly question it's shearing strength. If it was in the same class as cuban or honduras, the great cabinet makers of Europe would have used it 500 years ago. They had access to it before they had access to the american species. Can you find 200, 300 year old pieces of furniture from African mahogany? It was a known species, so did they not use it, or did they use it and the pieces did not last? If you are building a $500 piece, use african mahogany (use khaya ivorensis, it seems to be the best), who cares? If you are building a $20,000 (or more) reproduction, why take the chance of ruining the whole piece to save $5 bd ft for 50 or 100 ft? Use good genuine or cuban mahogany, make sure it is dried properly, and rough cut oversize and let it sit for a week if it is figured or has tension before you machine to final size.

the biggest problem with genuine mahogany is not that the price is too high now. The problem is we have been spoiled forever because the price has always been too low. Do you really think it is only worth twice the price of oak? It is better than cherry or walnut, and they are fine woods. No other wood combines all the attributes of mahogany, yet many other woods are more expensive (teak, rosewood, zebrawood, even wenge-ugh!).
 
Maderas,

Thanks for the update.  I agree with all our points for using Hon. Mah.  The only time I would use Af. Mah. is when I want to use my supply of ribbon strip for drawer fronts.  Personally, except for using ribbon strip on some drawer fronts, I would use only Hon. Mah. even if cost $15 per bd. ft.  Premium tiger stripe maple cost this much or more.  I know because I just bought some.

Thanks for the info.
Dennis Bork
 
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