Hollows & Rounds Sizing??

Woodmolds

Well-known member
At MESDA last month Don Williams mentioned a DVD about making wood planes by Tod Herrli. I bought it and this has piqued my interest because he basically builds a pair of hollows & rounds in a 1-1/2 hr. movie. Now I understand I'm not going to build them that quickly. But, this is very detailed considering the time given to accomplish the task. Needless to say his DVD has convinced me that I can indeed built some molding planes. Which leads to the question of numbering systems for h&r planes. I have researched this somewhat and am now more confused that ever. Is there a simple system of numbering and what sizes are the most useful? Any and all other thoughts, suggestions & recommendations on molding plane making will be appreciated.

Thanks, Tony Joyce
 
Kent,
I appreciate the reply. I had already found this article and that's what confused me. Based on what Tod Herrli says in his tape numbering is based on dividing a circle in 1/8's. ie: 14/8's would be a #14 which is a 1-3/4" dia. hollow or round. Based on the article, which lists three different convections, it would seem there is no "right" way to arrive at a current day "standard". One says #14 is 3-3/4" dia., another #14 is 2" dia. and yet another is 1-3/4" dia. I prefer Herrli's method(Greenfield), because it's simple and should be fairly easy to implement if I decide to do other sizes in the future. It also leaves room for other in-between sizes, if needed.

I'm really interested in a discussion on this to get others input as well, if anyone's interested. Does anyone use h&r on a regular basis? What sizes do you favor? Anyone built these planes?

Thanks!
 
Sorry I've been so slow following up on Tony's questions on this topic. The delay is largely due to being on the road for a couple of weeks, but also because (in the interest of disclosure) I have a vested interest in the topic. That, because I'm one of the partners in Clark & Williams, and we make and sell hollows and rounds - along with a range of other 18th century style side escapement as well as top escapement planes.

As Tony has observed, the numbering and sizing of hollows and rounds, historically, is one full of variations and exceptions. And any attempt to sort it out can be quite confusing - and, maybe, not terribly helpful to someone interested in making their own hollows and rounds. Unless they are wanting to fill out an existing set.

With that in mind, I thought I'd simply try to explain the convention we've arrived at and which we have found useful. It is largely based on British convention which tended to be followed by their major planemakers - though there were notable exceptions. And, we have departed from that convention in a couple of minor ways.

In any event, this convention is based on the width of the sole/cutter being equal to the radius of the arc (resulting in the arc being equal to one-sixth of the circumference of a circle). Also,  that the number of each pair is equal to the width/radius of that pair in sixteenths of an inch. Thus, the number 2 pair have a radius and sole width of 2/16ths, or 1/8". And a number 10 pair have a radius and width of 10/16ths, or 5/8".

That holds true through the number 12 pairs, after which the increments increase to 1/8". So, a number 13 pair will have a width/radius of 7/8" rather than the expected 13/16". Same for a number 18 pair, which will have a width/radius of 1 1/2 inches rather than the expected 18/16", or 1 1/8 inches. This parallels similar issues with carving gouge sweeps, and is due, we believe, to the fact that the smaller increments don't carry the same visual weight in these slower arcs as they do in the quicker ones.

Also, it is our observation that at least some British planemakers didn't stay with the one-sixth circumference approach (radius equals width of arc) in their larger sizes. We believe this may have been to better control the mouth opening, as well as a couple of other secondary considerations. We've decided not to follow this "exception" in the interest of keeping this aspect consistent throughout our sets.

In any event, this approach results in the following numbers and sizes

Sixteenth inch increments:

        # 1 H&R, 1/16" sole width and radius
#2 H&R, 1/8" sole width and radius
        #3 H&R, 3/16" sole width and radius
#4 H&R, 1/4" sole width and radius
        #5 H&R, 5/16" sole width and radius
#6 H&R, 3/8" sole width and radius
        #7 H&R, 7/16" sole width and radius
#8 H&R, 1/2" sole width and radius
        #9 H&R, 9/16" sole width and radius
#10 H&R, 5/8" sole width and radius
        #11 H&R, 11/16" sole width and radius
#12 H&R, 3/4" sole width and radius

Eighth-inch increments:

        #13 H&R, 7/8" sole width and radius
#14 H&R, 1" sole width and radius
        #15 H&R, 1 1/8" sole width and radius
#16 H&R, 1 1/4" sole width and radius
        #17 H&R, 1 3/8" sole width and radius
#18 H&R, 1 1/2" sole width and radius

As you'll note, I've offset the odd and even sizes in the above table. All 18 pairs would constitue a full set of hollows and rounds, while 9 pairs constitue a half-set, and these half-sets can be either even or odd sizes.

As to what sizes will be most useful, that largely depends on the scale of work you anticipate doing. However, as a general rule, I think it would seldom be the case that one would really benefit all that much by having a full set. In doing furniture work, the larger sizes of a half-set will probably handle most of the occasions when one is making a large cornice moulding and/or ogee bracket feet, while it might be useful to have odd and even sizes of some of the smaller planes. So, for example, an even half-set filled in with the #3, #5 and #7 sizes could prove quite useful.

Since you are interested in making your own hollows and rounds, I thought I'd also mention that the reason we were recently on the road was to tape for a DVD on this topic at Lie-Nielsen Tool Works. While the taping is over, I have no idea how long the rest of the process will take. But, they intend to move fairly quickly on this and I decided to mention it because I believe it will have a great deal of useful and interesting information for someone such as yourself. Again, of course, I must disclose that I have a small commercial interest in this upcoming product.

Hope this has been helpful.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
Don,
I very much appreciate your detailed explanation on sizing and your approach. I did pickup on one bit of information I had not previously noticed and that is radius and sole width are the same. Now a question on construction. I don't quite understand the layout and iron sizing on the smaller sizes of H&R's(below#6 or 3/8"). I guess what I'm trying to visualize is a cross section at the iron of these smaller sizes. 1/16" - 5/16". I would be much appreciative of some detailed pictures or a sketch on this.

Thanks, Tony Joyce

I'll be on the lookout for the DVD!
 
Hi Tony,

I've done up a quick sketch of Number 1 through 5 round planes, as we interpret the traditional forms. While not intended as an accurate working drawing, I hope it conveys the information you are interested in. The drawing may be a little confusing, but I didn't know how else to provide an idea of the overall profile of the bodies of the planes as well as the configuration of the irons. Needless to say, this is not a true cross-sectional drawing (because of the bedding angle of the irons), but, rather, I've tried to convey the vertical space occupied by the irons when looking at the planes from the heel. The irons are the hatched areas of the drawing, in case that isn't clear.

Hope this helps.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

 

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Don,
Thanks for the quick reply. The sketches are a big help and also helped me to understand the "leaning wedges". After looking at pictures on the Clark & Williams web site I thought this might be the approach. Are the "leaning wedges" as discussed in an article on the site also, is this common construction for all side escapement planes? How narrow are the irons and wedges at the mortise on the smaller sizes? 1/8" or 3/16". Are you still leaving 1/4" on the blind side at the sole or less for the smaller size.

I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions.

Thanks, Tony Joyce
 
All, A long time ago I had a idea that I would make my own set of hollows and rounds. But a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to be a plane maker or a furniture maker? Well, I wanted to build furniture So my advise is to BUY the best set of H/R you can find  which are from Clark And Williams. They work great and use the finest tool steel and the best Beechwood you can find. I also have other planes they have made and they are the most used planes in my shop. All of their planes are based on 18th century designs and Larry will answer any questions you have.

hope this helps, 

Mark
 
I have no doubt that Clark & Williams are of the finest quality, but if I had the money to buy all the tools I wanted, I wouldn't need to work would I? Besides I'm as interested in the knowledge I'm gaining as I am in building some planes to use. I have received some very good information from Don here and also from Larry Williams on another message board(Handplane-Forum). I have no intention of building planes other than for my own use, but the knowledge I'm getting is priceless. I'm really more interested in special molding planes, than hollows and rounds, but the basic techniques or mechanics are used for all side escapement planes. To put this in perspective I don't need any molding planes, because I have a 5" X 10" 6-head molding machine and 6-(1-horizontal arch) shapers of various sizes. So I really am doing it for the learning experience. Woodworking is more than just a hobby for me it's how I make a living. My woodworking education is a combination of self taught and handed down from my father, but I've never been schooled in the use of hand tool work. At 52 I just bought my first dovetail saw and decent set of chisels last year. I'm not giving up power tools yet, but I'm beginning to understand and appreciate the use of hand tools for some tasks. To know where you're going you need to know where you've been(or others before you).
 
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