Ammonia Ageing

H

hellmutt

Active member
I have finally got the corner chair together and now need to finish it. It is made of cherry. I would like to end up with an oil or wax finish, however would like to have it look old. About 30 years ago I had to replace some spindles on a spinning wheel. They were made of oak. If I remember right I washed them with ammonia then sat them outside in the sun. I believe I put a little stain on them and then oil. I can not tell at this point which ones I replaced. I would like that same effect on this chair. However I thought I would ask before messing up the first thing I have built in ten years.
Do I sand first then ammonia or after? Any Ideas? Any suggestions?
 
If you’re after that old? Weathered look, No need to sand or clean up at all? As the ammonia will raise the grain destroying all your hard work, just let it work to your desired effect, then Kill the ammonia by neutralising with clean water, dry off, stain & polish, as you indicate.
The Wax will give the oldest finish.
                                                       

                                                            Joseph hemingway
 
I never heard of aging cherry with ammonia.  You wipe it on as you would stain, and it oxidizes the surface?
 
Joe, Your reply sounds like you do not like what I am proposing to do with this chair, which is ok. I did however ask for any suggestions, which I would greatly appreciate from someone who has had the years of woodworking that you have. My main goal is to try and make the chair look old or have a certain look that I appreciate seeing in old furniture. Being a woodworker for the number of years that you have I believe you know what I'm taking about. Ideas of what to do would be well accepted.

Mike
 
Mike, you indicated you were requiring a washed-out look; you can get this with ammonia.
As you did 30 years ago, you will remove the natural color to an Gray finish.
(Washed-out).
Its up to yourself? if you require this finish? I am easy, ether way?
But please don’t imply thoughts, I’m not having? Like; Joe, Your reply sounds like you do not like what I am proposing to do with this chair.
Mike your incharge.
Try it out on a scrap of the same timber first? If its not deep enough after ammonia,
Bleaching is your next step. but you didnt bleach 30 years ago?
hope this helps
                                                 
                                                           Joseph Hemingway
I think I’m a little of base on this, on reviewing your first question? You were replacing an oak spindle; oak turns a Deep Brown colour with ammonia, cherry will need a stain, to get that same Deep Brown colour you achieved on oak, Van Dike Crystals, is Your best option, sorry for misunderstanding your first question.?
this will help.
                                                             
                                                            Joseph Hemingway

 
I don't think ammonia is going to do what you want to cherry. That's an acid base thing, I think, and cherry isn't particularly acidic.  Cherry gets significantly redder as it ages.

I had a job like this.  In my case it was kitchen cabinets and getting new cherry to look like old cherry.  What I did was use tinted shellac and tinted wax, thinking I could remove some of the tint as the base wood changed color.  I'm not sure what others do, but I would think this would be a good use of some fugative dye.  I think the water based dyes are not color fast.  So dye it the color you want, then apply your finish.  Hopefully the wood will darken as the dye fades and you'd be left with something that remains a nice red.  That may be wishful thinking.

I'm thinking of applying some faux finish to my chippendale chair.  Of course this is an immensly complicated subject.  I asked the PMoA for help.  They do quite a bit of that sort of thing.  One aspect of old furniture is that the pores are completely filled.  So consider this important first step.  I would be very careful about sanding.  The texture or degree of filling is not uniform.  And of course, the pores fill with something very dark- old oil for example.  A black pore fill may be the right one.

What i do know for certain is that they start with a spit coat of shellac, then fill pores, then use shellac or briwax as a vehicle for natural earth pigments.  They pounce on coarse pigments and build up areas of texture.  Its rare or never that what you see in a museum is original to the piece or even what it looked like when they got it.  BTW, this results in antique finishes.  To approximate original finishes, follow a spit coat of shellac with tinted oil "glazes" and rub it out.

FWIW, this last part is my understanding, not my experience.  I've tried these techniques on small unimportant things.  Haven't had the guts to do this is a big piece of furniture yet.

Adam
 
If it is cherry, try using lye.  It can be hard to control.  Sun will darken as I am sure you know.  Otherwise I would use water based dyes, shellac, grain filler, glazes, pigments, alcohol dyes,.......  dirt.....  a chain, rocks....    It can be a long process.
 
If you use lye, make the solution very weak. Neutralize the lye with a vinegar and water solution. Jeff Jewett discusses this in his book and/or video "Hand Applied Finishes". I have tried it on some small chest with very good results.

You can get lye crystals on eBay, it's used in the process of making Bio-Diesel so it's still pretty readily available for the time being. Be sure you get familiar with its dangerous properties before using.

Tony Joyce
 
I'm coming in late to this discussion, but thought I'd add a little on the ammonia process.

Generally speaking, most folks use ammonia in the vapor phase to darken wood to avoid the grain raising effect of applying the aqueous solution directly to the wood.

What happens with ammonia is that it combines with tannin in the wood to form an insoluble dark amine compound.  The formation of this compound can go quite deep into the wood if the piece is left in the ammonia fumes for extended periods.

As you might surmise, ammonia fuming works best on woods with a high tannin content.  One often sees it in reference to oak (both white and red), and it's the classic process used on Stickley furniture.  It also works well on mahogany.

However, one can use the process on woods that aren't very high in tannin if the natural content is supplemented first.  I've seen this done on maple, and to good effect.  The maple was first sprayed with a dilute solution of tannic acid (you can get this from chemical supply houses and leather tanning suppliers, or you can make your own by crushing up oak galls in water).  The spray coat of tannic acid was allowed to dry, then the maple was fumed over 30% ammonium hydroxide for about 6 hours.

The result, to my eye, looks a bit like Kentucky rifles that are darkened with aqua fortis (nitric acid) - the grain that comprises the end-grain portion of the curl in the maple was darkened considerably, while the portion of the curl that runs parallel with the surface darkened only slightly.

I rather suspect one could achieve the same dramatic effect with cherry.  However, as with any sort of schedule that you're not familiar with, the key is doing experiments with test samples.  There's nothing more disheartening than having to sand away the top tenth of an inch of surface off of a complicated piece because of the uncertain outcome of an unfamiliar finishing process.
 
David,

An excellent explanation of the fuming process. I understand it a little better now.

So a history question as I am curious and don't recall reading too much about fuming as a traditional 18th C. practice. We know this was done on Craftsman and Mission style furniture as a finishing technique. But did any of the 18C. folks employ this method? Has anybody seen fumed finishes on any high style or vernacular furniture of that period? Oak wasn't too popular as a "premier" wood but mahogany was.

I've always liked the look of fumed (or expertly done fake fumed) quarter sawn oak on later pieces so I was wondering if anyone knew if it was done prior to Stickley et al's popularizing of it.

Thanks,

Rick Yochim 
 
"But did any of the 18C. folks employ this method? Has anybody seen fumed finishes on any high style or vernacular furniture of that period? Oak wasn't too popular as a "premier" wood but mahogany was."

I'm not aware of any sources that indicate that this was a popular finishing method prior to the 19th century.  The actual chemistry of ammonia wasn't discovered and described until the 19th century, so I'm not sure whether a concentrated solution of ammonia could even be purchased in the 18th century, though certainly ammonia could be produced by distillation of animal dung.

It is clear that concentrated acids were available in the 18th century - aqua fortis was a period name for Nitric acid, used to darken gunstocks and other maple pieces, and etch metals.
 
dkeller_nc said:
"But did any of the 18C. folks employ this method? Has anybody seen fumed finishes on any high style or vernacular furniture of that period? Oak wasn't too popular as a "premier" wood but mahogany was."

I'm not aware of any sources that indicate that this was a popular finishing method prior to the 19th century.  The actual chemistry of ammonia wasn't discovered and described until the 19th century, so I'm not sure whether a concentrated solution of ammonia could even be purchased in the 18th century, though certainly ammonia could be produced by distillation of animal dung.

It is clear that concentrated acids were available in the 18th century - aqua fortis was a period name for Nitric acid, used to darken gunstocks and other maple pieces, and etch metals.
Click to expand...

Has you might know? I was apprenticed to Taylor & Hobson Ltd, old story’s appeared at the dinner table? Quite regular, one question was?  how did they do it in the old days? Mahogany was the timber in 1851, although T & H (1851-1992) made showrooms full of oak furniture after that date, Kay Eastwood, Forman Polisher, was quite adamant! A fume box was used on most of the Antique furniture we were working on at that time, he as a young man used one, and described one at length to me. So don’t be incomplaisant, some very clever people was around in the 1800, and after that.
hope this helps                 
                                                         Joseph Hemingway
                                                             Sharing the tricks of the trade.
 
So, following this, and with what we do know about 18th C. practices, we can assume that even though ammonia was a 19th C. discovery and then practice, it  could have been employed by some clever cabinet-maker and just not documented. Unfortunately there are no extent pieces to assess and it doesn't come up anywhere in the literature (that we know about).

So it's safe to say that if we think that ammonia fuming was done in the 18th C. that would be an assumption only. We could then rule it in or rule it out as future research sheds more light.

Interesting discussion.  Thanks.

Rick Yochim     
 
Well let’s examine the logistics here, between 1730-40 mahogany took over from Walnut, Queen Anne Furniture, their finish was; Raw Linseed Oil, under Bees Wax. This was used up to 1840 when French polish was invented.
We all now today; Linseed darkens the timber over time, and by 1840 the 1740 colour would be  “A deep brown”.
But speed and quantity was noted for Victorian times, so waiting 3 to 6 months for the oil to dry would not be an option for them. So to achieve the old colour, for under they’re new “French Polish” a new way would be needed.
Quite probably; Mike’s guess; “The horse barn caused the wood to change colour” give the Very Clever Victorians, there answer, Ammonia. But not understanding in full mechanics at first? Quite possibly; Moist Horse dung was used, warmed till steaming, timber placed over this, in time would get enough ammonia to achieve the correct colour, “A deep brown”. So a stacking rack would follow, and then a closed environment, to contain the steam (Fumes).
And because this would dry quite quickly. (Days not Months)  there new French polish could be applied sooner.
A few “If & butts”. I admit? But this is how we all do our thing today, Through Trial & Error.
Any comments please? 

                                                      Joseph hemingway
 
Joseph et al,

Makes sense that trough trial and error they would discover a purpose for horse dung in a confined place, (really trying to stifle an impulse toward horse dung humor here) but we just don't know for sure whether ammonia aging was an 18 C. practice. It is plausable that it could have occured and was known at the time, especially if an individual craftsman or a shop had no where else to lay up their freshly sawn stock than the barn or stable.

What we do know is that they had a strong pre-disposition toward dye stains to achieve color and oil and wax for finish; the formulae for which are voluminous and heavily documented. They knew how to achieve the color and tone they wanted and it was done primarily with commonly traded dyestuffs and pigments used in textile dying and paint coloring. I'm guessing that wood colored through the ammonia aging process (again, 18C. here) was, if it occured, an unintended consequence and not a deliberate act.

Rick 
 
Rick et al, last year a Mr John Bjerga, sent me photos of a pair of mahogany chairs he was restoring; He had found a trade label on the chairs! F B Hobson and Sons, Huddersfield, he was enquiring if I new of the Firm, having found my website, these chairs are French polished, he stated. Ill try to attach some history on this Huddersfield firm (1851-1992) if it works? that is. Albert Taylor & son 1740, and FB Hobson and sons 1751, both trading in Huddersfield, The trade labels indicate F B Hobson is trading from, 1,3,5, 7, Buxton road, Well in 1899 Taylor & Hobson Ltd was formed from 2 company's.  In 1851 Hobson would have 1 shop (just starting up) in 1899 they had 10 shops in one block, so I hazard a guess 4 shops about 1775 or before, has expansion goes with demand, so it could well be 1762? Now this is the interesting bit, BLO, darkens deeper with time, so from 1762 to 2009 (247 years) if not fumed by ammonia, this would be jet black with BLO, John states the polish work looks original, so this is why I find Kay Eastwards expiation in 1960, all tallies up, the Victorian cabinetmakers were clever sods, (joke) having invented French polish, in 1840 fuming followed after? But this could open another date issue, did fuming come before 1840. All possible.
please e/mail me at; [email protected]  and I will gladly forward all information,

                                                          Joseph Hemingway
                                                             Sharing the tricks of the trade
 
Rick et al, Here is a piece of back section; again from:The FB Hobson & sons, chair (!851- 1862 or after)? not as I put first time around (1762)
This fresh looking finnish is not from a wax polish, its is as stated by John Bjerga, French Polished, now this would not be this golden brown, if treated with BLO, and the sheen is not deap with wax. anyway here it is (at last) open to hear any other theory's

                                                              Joseph Hemingway.
                                                                Sharing the tricks of the trade.
 
dkeller_nc said:
"But did any of the 18C. folks employ this method? Has anybody seen fumed finishes on any high style or vernacular furniture of that period.

David et al, first I've answered your Q with the F B Hobson & sons chair, but this weekend? new present day infomation as come to light, Richard Greenhalch, a freind & fellow local cabinetmaker, has this book on "Robert Thomson, The Mouse Man,from Kilburn, North Yorkshire. and that firm use ammonia fuming today, on there oak adzes furniture, Now I have visited many there studio many times , but never discovered this new fact,(Secret) Protecting there market share, by Undercover polishing? or something like that, Possible I would have my old workshop still? if I'd adoted there Secert Society. but then I would not have met you.

                                                                          Joseph Hemingway
                                                                              Sharing the tricks of the trade
Click to expand...
 
dkeller_nc said:
"But did any of the 18C. folks employ this method? Has anybody seen fumed finishes on any high style or vernacular furniture of that period? Oak wasn't too popular as a "premier" wood but mahogany was."

I'm not aware of any sources that indicate that this was a popular finishing method prior to the 19th century.  The actual chemistry of ammonia wasn't discovered and described until the 19th century, so I'm not sure whether a concentrated solution of ammonia could even be purchased in the 18th century, though certainly ammonia could be produced by distillation of animal dung.

It is clear that concentrated acids were available in the 18th century - aqua fortis was a period name for Nitric acid, used to darken gunstocks and other maple pieces, and etch metals.
Click to expand...

David et al, today I loaned the book on: Robert Thompson, The Mouseman, in it they explain about their finishing techniques, including ammonia fuming, this is interesting as it explains the middle ages technique,Wee! all? (joke) might find this quite an eye opener. I attach the info from the page. heres another joke? I bet it cost "Pee" nuts them?
sorry its that duo: Morcame & Wise from the 60's.

                                                                Joseph Hemingway
                                                                  sharing the tricks of the trade.
 
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